Home User CP Browse Members Calendar Register Today!  
Get New posts Faq / Help? Community Menu
   

Go Back   Hookah Pro - Hookah Forum > Hookah Stuff > Hookah Discussion

Hookah Discussion General discussion related to hookah ...

Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Hookah Discussion

Reply Share
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old March 19th, 2009, 04:56 PM
Hajo Flettner
Status: Offline
Hookah Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,746
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murkmastur View Post
Phew!...I don't mind a flavored cigarette or cigarillo every once in a while, but if they go away, no loss here..I couldn't live without shisha or pipe tobacco though. People are a bit hypocritical for saying the tobacco industry is responsible for kids showing an interest in cigarettes, when health classes teach kids all the time NOT to go near them. Reverse psychology says that doing that pretty much says "go ahead" to those who are truly curious, right?
The thing is that it doesn't matter what you, I or anyone else thinks about snuff, cigarettes, pipes, cigars or what ever form of tobacco we can think of because the people that want to ban tobacco or tax it out of existence don't differentiate between any of it. They simply don't believe that you should be allowed to consume tobacco and they will we use their political influence to force the government into NOT LETTING YOU DECIDE THE MATTER FOR YOURSELF.

In reality the anti-tobacco lobby doesn't care about kids per say and no one that has thought about it for a few minutes thinks that higher tobacco taxes will pay for anyone's health care. Instead, all this blather about "saving the children" is simply a way to sell higher taxes and bans to the ignorant segments of the population and Congress. After all, who wants to be accused of "not caring what happens the children"?

The same basic strategy is used to censor the internet, authorize torture, invade other countries and ban guns. Fear mongering, specially when it comes "saving the children" or "protecting democracy" works every time.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old March 19th, 2009, 05:05 PM
mattathayde's Avatar
mattathayde
Status: Offline
Hookah Master
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Richmond/Yorktown VA
Posts: 3,779
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

honestly hajo i think it is blown a bit out of proportion (and i mean no offense at all by any of this), ya people are trying to take it away but people also try to take away guns, and then people freak out, stock up on stuff and the price jumps any way.

people over react whit these types of things, im not saying that we should not pay attention if these things start going through congress but i think its like a full ban on gun/abortion/alcohol, it wont happen and even if some how it did it wouldnt work, the black market would boom (and frankly if we established a black market for common items like tobacco i think that things will slip in that are much worse than tobacco)

-matt
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old March 19th, 2009, 05:06 PM
Lakemonster's Avatar
Lakemonster
Status: Offline
Hookah Enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,211
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

There is a similar type ban on flavored cigarettes in place in New Jersey from what I understand.

A flavored tobacco ban would also kill pipe tobacco as it is in fact flavored ("cased" is the industry term).

As for the sidetalk on firearms. As it stands, you cannot have a rifled barreled weapon that takes modern cartridge ammunition over .50 caliber.

The idea of restricting muzzleloaders to .50 cal and under would really do harm to primitive hunters and Rev/Civil war rein actors. Civil war rifles were generally at .69 cal or better on the bores. Muskets and rifles of smaller caliber than that were reserved for the children to hunt small game. .45 caliber was the choice for hunting squirrels
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old March 19th, 2009, 05:26 PM
Hajo Flettner
Status: Offline
Hookah Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,746
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattathayde View Post
honestly hajo i think it is blown a bit out of proportion (and i mean no offense at all by any of this), ya people are trying to take it away but people also try to take away guns, and then people freak out, stock up on stuff and the price jumps any way.

people over react whit these types of things, im not saying that we should not pay attention if these things start going through congress but i think its like a full ban on gun/abortion/alcohol, it wont happen and even if some how it did it wouldnt work, the black market would boom (and frankly if we established a black market for common items like tobacco i think that things will slip in that are much worse than tobacco)

-matt
I think you're not getting how these things take effect. Basically what happens is that when a tax increase comes a long a people say "what's the big deal if the cost of cigs go up by 5%, I can afford it." What they don't understand is that the actual cost increase is a lot more for the reasons i've explained several times else where.

When it comes to the ban on flavoured tobacco what happens is your typical Camel or pipe smoker says "It won't effect me, nothing I smoke is fruit flavoured" while people here say "surely the government won't take my moassel away, they only want to ban flavoured cigarettes". Mean while the government says "the law says flavoured tobacco is banned so goodbye pipes, flavoured cigarettes/cigars and hookahs." The public says "well I heard on TV we need to ban flavoured tobacco to protect the children so I guess it's a good idea." Lastly we have folks like you saying "well it would never happen" but history demonstrates otherwise so....

Bottom line is the public at at large could either care less if flavoured tobacco is banned or they like the idea as does the media, the president a very powerful anti tobacco lobby and a big chunk of Congress. Assuming it will all work for best is wishful thinking and delusional.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old March 19th, 2009, 05:26 PM
QuakeHookah's Avatar
QuakeHookah
Status: Offline
Hookah Nut
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 99
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

i think that if they actualy banned tobacco which they wont, the economy would become even worse, and the crime rate would go up because of the "black market" or dealers for tobacco. They would have to concentrate on the tobacco aswell as main drugs which are more important.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old March 19th, 2009, 05:40 PM
Mackmaven's Avatar
Mackmaven
Status: Offline
Hookah Aficionado
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mar Vista, CA
Posts: 1,646
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Sec. 907 a1 is the only part of this bill that I found to address flavored tobacco, this part of the bill is labeled as a special rule for cigarettes. While it does give the secretary power over the interpretation of this section, I would see the tobacco lobby influencing a limitation on that particular facet as it strikes far too close to Menthols, even though they are technically exempt in the current text.

I personally am not concerned about this bill passing. Or it having any effect on our shisha should it (by some miracle) pass.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old March 19th, 2009, 05:41 PM
Hajo Flettner
Status: Offline
Hookah Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,746
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

So far, the congress is only considering a ban of flavoured tobacco rather then the the regular kind. While it will be bad for the economy most people will go along with it because it'll "save the children and reduce health care expenses". Besides, banning stuff creates jobs for government regulators and basically anyone that doesn't have a relative working in the tobacco industry could could care less what happens to it.

As to the black market, well that will be dealt with by spending more money on law enforcement which is always popular with the public.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old March 19th, 2009, 05:45 PM
stolenbythesky
Status: Offline
Hookah Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 97
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

I'm what you might call a left-wing college kid. Actually, that's exactly what I am.

This bill, and similar bills, have been passed around in congress for the better part of 40 years and NEVER passed. It has nothing to do with liberal/conservative congress, ecological damage, "saving the children", what have you. This is big business, this is the American way, and you're only kidding yourself if you don't think the tobacco lobby has enough say in Congress to override this bill, as they have for the past 40 years.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old March 19th, 2009, 05:53 PM
Hajo Flettner
Status: Offline
Hookah Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,746
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackmaven View Post
Sec. 907 a1 is the only part of this bill that I found to address flavored tobacco, this part of the bill is labeled as a special rule for cigarettes. While it does give the secretary power over the interpretation of this section, I would see the tobacco lobby influencing a limitation on that particular facet as it strikes far too close to Menthols, even though they are technically exempt in the current text.

I personally am not concerned about this bill passing. Or it having any effect on our shisha should it (by some miracle) pass.
You do know that both the surgeon general and the secretary of the department of health are fully in favour of absolutely every anti-tobacco measure that has ever been proposed don't you? You do know that both have publicly spoken out on the evils of hookahs don't you? You do know that establishing a legal precedent for banning certain forms of tobacco will make it a lot easier to ban other forms of tobacco don't you? Assuming you know all of that i'm a bit confused why you think that they won't interpret the ban to be on anything not specifically exempt ?
You do know that no one thought that the SCHIP tax increases would be passed don't you? You do know that no one thought the ban on flavoured cigarettes would happen in New Jersey don't you? Explain to me again why you think this bill won't pass? Is it because the media, the congress, the president or the public is so pro-tobacco? Perhaps you haven't noticed that anti-tobacco legislation basically sails through Congress with no meaningful opposition?

Last edited by Hajo Flettner; March 19th, 2009 at 06:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old March 19th, 2009, 06:00 PM
Scoop's Avatar
Scoop
Status: Offline
Hookah Guru
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: the City of Angels
Posts: 2,752
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

honestly, if they ban hookah tobacco, ill quit smoking. not nearly as into it as i was (in terms of smoking, i still love collecting hookahs), and i can probably live without it if it came to that.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old March 19th, 2009, 06:11 PM
Hajo Flettner
Status: Offline
Hookah Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,746
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Quote:
Originally Posted by stolenbythesky View Post
I'm what you might call a left-wing college kid. Actually, that's exactly what I am.

This bill, and similar bills, have been passed around in congress for the better part of 40 years and NEVER passed. It has nothing to do with liberal/conservative congress, ecological damage, "saving the children", what have you. This is big business, this is the American way, and you're only kidding yourself if you don't think the tobacco lobby has enough say in Congress to override this bill, as they have for the past 40 years.
The bill in question (or something similar) hasn't been around for 40 years since the rise of flavoured tobacco is a recent thing so I guess you're simply presuming that the tobacco industry has some strangle hold on Congress that it doesn't. It's pretty clear that you haven't been paying attention to the rhetoric used to promote the bill in question or the SCHIP tax scheme or else you'd have noted the "save the children" pablum. Still, if it makes you feel better to pretend that the people pushing this sort of thing aren't working for tobacco prohibition irregardless of what they have said so be it. As to the tobacco industry I suppose you think they were stunningly effective in beating the SCHIP tax scheme and equally brilliant at defeating smoking bans, that they haven't been forced to pay for anti-tobacco campaigns and that add restrictions never happened. I guess I just got confused when I thought that cigarette machines got banned because that wasn't supposed to happen either. A couple more victories like that the industry will cease to exist. But hey, the bill in question can't pass because, well, just because.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old March 19th, 2009, 07:03 PM
stolenbythesky
Status: Offline
Hookah Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 97
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hajo Flettner View Post
The bill in question (or something similar) hasn't been around for 40 years since the rise of flavoured tobacco is a recent thing so I guess you're simply presuming that the tobacco industry has some strangle hold on Congress that it doesn't. It's pretty clear that you haven't been paying attention to the rhetoric used to promote the bill in question or the SCHIP tax scheme or else you'd have noted the "save the children" pablum. Still, if it makes you feel better to pretend that the people pushing this sort of thing aren't working for tobacco prohibition irregardless of what they have said so be it. As to the tobacco industry I suppose you think they were stunningly effective in beating the SCHIP tax scheme and equally brilliant at defeating smoking bans, that they haven't been forced to pay for anti-tobacco campaigns and that add restrictions never happened. I guess I just got confused when I thought that cigarette machines got banned because that wasn't supposed to happen either. A couple more victories like that the industry will cease to exist. But hey, the bill in question can't pass because, well, just because.
I was talking about tobacco bans in general, not flavored. They CERTAINLY don't have a stranglehold on Congress, but if the past is any proof of politics, it won't happen. The smoking populous of the US has been stalled at 21% since 2007, and admittedly, between 1990 and 2007 it dropped dramatically. I still don't think this bill is realistic in any manner, despite the save the children rhetoric. 1/5 of the U.S. population is not going to be stopped by a Congressional bill, not to mention the tobacco industry in the US alone has a minimum $2billion REVENUE yearly. That's minus every worker and executive's paycheck. It's like the drug war. They can try, but they won't succeed. Prohibition of tobacco in restaurants, public places, etc, has not shown any impact on tobacco sales at large. I don't deny the significant damage previous bills have done to smoker's rights. To be completely honest, I think most of these bills are plainly and simply beneficial. People should know the dangers of smoking and should be reminded of them. Tobacco companies should pay for those warnings. Tobacco should not be available to minors. I don't like that I can't smoke in restaurants, but it's only fair to non-smokers. The industry thrives irregardless.

Some Congressional officials are convinced that flavored tobacco appeals more to kids than non-flavored, I'm not. I think it's much more of the light in which we present adult topics to adolescents, and more importantly, the way Congress presents adult topics to citizens at large.

EDIT: I just realized I said it hasn't shown any impact on tobacco sales, what I meant was any truly significant impact. Came off as a bit foolish.
EDIT 2: To be completely honest, I'm probably not well read enough on the topic to be arguing about it, but hey, just my two cents.

Last edited by stolenbythesky; March 19th, 2009 at 07:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old March 19th, 2009, 09:58 PM
Buddhizzle's Avatar
Buddhizzle
Status: Offline
Hookah Pro
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 889
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hookahinthewomb View Post
I have the perfect plan to stop this. Everyone needs to take all their money out of banks causing a cataclismic depression. That way the congress will have no time to think about banning tobacco
step one complete!
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old March 19th, 2009, 10:15 PM
Uscorp's Avatar
Uscorp
Status: Offline
Hookah Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 59
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Scared me there quick haha.
Just spent money on a hookah. haha

~Corp
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old March 19th, 2009, 10:45 PM
uglybiker's Avatar
uglybiker
Status: Offline
Quantum Bubblenautics,PhD

 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The Dread Pyramid of Itzilichlitlichlitzl
Posts: 7,366
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Quote:
Originally Posted by stolenbythesky View Post
This bill, and similar bills, have been passed around in congress for the better part of 40 years and NEVER passed.
Tell that to the motorcycle and OHV industry. Right now they're having to deal with one of 'those' bills that passed.

Bike Ban Update: The CPSC's Side of the Story

http://www.cyclenews.com/articles/in...gives-its-side

The law is called the Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act. And, like so many others, it was passed to "protect our chilllldren". (barf)
__________________
FroYo = Phatt Azzd Kaloudz Yo!

Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old March 19th, 2009, 10:46 PM
Cnphoto's Avatar
Cnphoto
Status: Offline
Hookah Pro
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 543
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

fuck this. if that bill passes i got 3 Holmes in Iran Ive been WAITING to move back into!
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old March 19th, 2009, 11:24 PM
hookah-happy
Status: Offline
Hookah Nut
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 130
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

I think it's kind of funny how Obama is modeling himself after Franklin Roosevelt, the man who ended alcohol prohibition, but at the same time he is working on getting tobacco products banned. People should have paid more attention in history class. This is only going to cause the same problems that prohibition did.

ORGANIZED CRIME, FUCK YEAH!!!
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old March 19th, 2009, 11:43 PM
Coldgr33ntea's Avatar
Coldgr33ntea
Status: Offline
Hookah Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 1,412
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

I dont have tme to read all of that, but from what ive heard, they want to discourage the flavored cigarillos and ciggarettes from being sold in singles, this supposedly makes it much easier for teens to try smoking because if you wanted to try it, it would cost you a 6$ pack. Whereas in singles you can get 50cent-1$ flavored cigarrettes and its much easier to urge yourself into smoking it. This was on the news in Michigan, but i doubt any action will be taken.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old March 19th, 2009, 11:58 PM
Mackmaven's Avatar
Mackmaven
Status: Offline
Hookah Aficionado
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mar Vista, CA
Posts: 1,646
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hajo Flettner View Post
But hey, the bill in question can't pass because, well, just because.
I'd respectfully like to point out that so far your reasoning for why it will, for sure, definitely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, pass hasn't been much better.

"anti-smoking bills sail through congress", it's all Obama, and sayin "we didn't see that other one comin" doesn't lend any actual support to why you figure this will pass it just makes you the hookah equivalent of those backwoods militia guys that have their gun-pile continually restocked cus they figure the government is comin for their arms pretty soon. After-all anti-gun legislation sails through congress...

I'm not sayin I got all the answers or evidence either, but if you're going to start pointing out flaws...
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old March 20th, 2009, 12:07 AM
mattathayde's Avatar
mattathayde
Status: Offline
Hookah Master
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Richmond/Yorktown VA
Posts: 3,779
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakemonster View Post
There is a similar type ban on flavored cigarettes in place in New Jersey from what I understand.

A flavored tobacco ban would also kill pipe tobacco as it is in fact flavored ("cased" is the industry term).

As for the sidetalk on firearms. As it stands, you cannot have a rifled barreled weapon that takes modern cartridge ammunition over .50 caliber.

The idea of restricting muzzleloaders to .50 cal and under would really do harm to primitive hunters and Rev/Civil war rein actors. Civil war rifles were generally at .69 cal or better on the bores. Muskets and rifles of smaller caliber than that were reserved for the children to hunt small game. .45 caliber was the choice for hunting squirrels
class 3 license, you can get it and as long as you dont have any criminal back ground you can get a class 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackmaven View Post
I'd respectfully like to point out that so far your reasoning for why it will, for sure, definitely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, pass hasn't been much better.

"anti-smoking bills sail through congress", it's all Obama, and sayin "we didn't see that other one comin" doesn't lend any actual support to why you figure this will pass it just makes you the hookah equivalent of those backwoods militia guys that have their gun-pile continually restocked cus they figure the government is comin for their arms pretty soon. After-all anti-gun legislation sails through congress...

I'm not sayin I got all the answers or evidence either, but if you're going to start pointing out flaws...
exactly, while its not something to totally blow off its something that even at a political level is stupid and will lose re-elections. our country was founded on tobacco and still has a huge part of the economy based on it. the only "good" that could come out of it would be some health improvements over all but economically, politically, socially it doesnt make sense at all and honestly i think there is more support for legalizing some currently illegal substances and banning all fire arms, and neither one of those will happen any time soon

-matt
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old March 20th, 2009, 12:14 AM
Hajo Flettner
Status: Offline
Hookah Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,746
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Quote:
Originally Posted by stolenbythesky View Post
I was talking about tobacco bans in general, not flavored. They CERTAINLY don't have a stranglehold on Congress, but if the past is any proof of politics, it won't happen. The smoking populous of the US has been stalled at 21% since 2007, and admittedly, between 1990 and 2007 it dropped dramatically. I still don't think this bill is realistic in any manner, despite the save the children rhetoric. 1/5 of the U.S. population is not going to be stopped by a Congressional bill, not to mention the tobacco industry in the US alone has a minimum $2billion REVENUE yearly. That's minus every worker and executive's paycheck. It's like the drug war. They can try, but they won't succeed. Prohibition of tobacco in restaurants, public places, etc, has not shown any impact on tobacco sales at large. I don't deny the significant damage previous bills have done to smoker's rights. To be completely honest, I think most of these bills are plainly and simply beneficial. People should know the dangers of smoking and should be reminded of them. Tobacco companies should pay for those warnings. Tobacco should not be available to minors. I don't like that I can't smoke in restaurants, but it's only fair to non-smokers. The industry thrives irregardless.

Some Congressional officials are convinced that flavored tobacco appeals more to kids than non-flavored, I'm not. I think it's much more of the light in which we present adult topics to adolescents, and more importantly, the way Congress presents adult topics to citizens at large.

EDIT: I just realized I said it hasn't shown any impact on tobacco sales, what I meant was any truly significant impact. Came off as a bit foolish.
EDIT 2: To be completely honest, I'm probably not well read enough on the topic to be arguing about it, but hey, just my two cents.
A few things quickly.

1) Since this bill will only effect those American smokers that use flavoured tobacco it won't effect 21% but only a small fraction of smokers over all. The divide and conquer thing really works and this threads shows that when you read stuff like ďwho cares, it wonít effect me because it doesnít explicitly say hookah/shisha/moassel or whatever.Ē

2) The stability in the number of smokers has followed a huge drop off as you pointed out. What you did not point out is that the remaining smokers consume a lot less as a result of smoking bans, insurance denial and tax increases. Bottom line is that tobacco sales are drastically less then they were 10 years ago in all market segments save hookah stuff which is a tiny portion of the market. I could post a mountain studies on the matter itís pretty dry reading and I doubt anyone is that interested.

Basically, those outcomes were the intended ones because all the anti-tobacco policies Iíve mentioned are all about forcing people to quit. If they wanted to raise tax revenue the tax rates on tobacco would be cut and every economist worthy of the title knows it.

3) $2 billion in profits yearly on a product consumed daily by over 60 million people is pretty lousy. When you consider the ROI on even cheap cigarettes and the massive liabilities extending for at least several decades I think youíll notice why tobacco companies have been diversifying for decades and why companies like Phillip-Morris get most of their revenue and profit from non-tobacco based markets. Another thing is that most of the profit in the American tobacco industry comes from export rather then domestic sales.

4) To say that ďmost of these bills are plainly and simply beneficialĒ is simply absurd unless you think that forcing people not to smoke is plainly and simply beneficial. They havenít been beneficial financially as the tax increases have reduced consumption to such an extent that they have reduced revenue intake significantly. They havenít been beneficial in that they have forced people to do what the state demands rather then live as free men ought to be able to. I suppose you like the idea of government deciding what you should and shouldnít be able to do for your own good. I prefer being treated like an adult rather then as a peon or child and resent being denied the opportunity.

5) The comment ď People should know the dangers of smoking and should be reminded of them.Ē is simply nonsensical because the public doesnít know much at all about the actual risk factors associated with tobacco consumption or any of the economic issues related to it. Passing off sensational junk science motivated by politics as public health warnings is not educational although I realize that being in a university makes determination of such matters extremely difficult having been in the same boat before. I could recommend a lot of material that you should consider if you so wish.

6) Your notion that the tobacco industry should pay to have itís products demonized and itís customers berated is quite possibly the most outrageous suggestion I have yet heard in this thread. You see I believe that consumers shouldnít consume something they donít understand and being feed junk science by politics is mis-educational rather then vital info makes an informed decision hard to achieve . As an adult, I donít think that the state should force me to pay for ham fisted propaganda designed to stigmatize my pass time and insult my intelligence. Iíd prefer the frustrated commissars of the world having to pay to push their claptrap rather then taking public funds to do so. Even in Communist China or basically any authoritarian nation I can think of my choice to smoke is met with less social rejection, less taxes and less abuse then it is in so called democratic nations like the U.S.. If I wanted to have a nanny direct my life Iíd have stayed in a nursery and do what Iím told. Subservience is not for me but the problem is that folks like you make me and everyone else put up with and pay for it.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old March 20th, 2009, 12:23 AM
Hajo Flettner
Status: Offline
Hookah Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,746
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackmaven View Post
I'd respectfully like to point out that so far your reasoning for why it will, for sure, definitely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, pass hasn't been much better.
Really? I suppose if think that a little thing called history and precedent doesn't count for much then I suppose you're right. I suppose that public statements of the the president, the secretary of health, the surgeon general, countless members of congress, endless add campaigns and public opinion polls don't say much one another on the matter after all. Likewise the stunning apathy among smokers here doesn't indicate much of anything either I suppose. I guess if I accept your standards of evidence I'd have to say that making an educated guess about what's coming is simply not possible. So much for empiricism.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old March 20th, 2009, 12:25 AM
Hajo Flettner
Status: Offline
Hookah Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,746
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cnphoto View Post
fuck this. if that bill passes i got 3 Holmes in Iran Ive been WAITING to move back into!
Very funny. I wish you were wrong however.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old March 20th, 2009, 12:33 AM
Hajo Flettner
Status: Offline
Hookah Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,746
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Quote:
Originally Posted by hookah-happy View Post
I think it's kind of funny how Obama is modeling himself after Franklin Roosevelt, the man who ended alcohol prohibition, but at the same time he is working on getting tobacco products banned. People should have paid more attention in history class. This is only going to cause the same problems that prohibition did.

ORGANIZED CRIME, FUCK YEAH!!!
Well, we know "the one" must be right because well, they say he's a great speaker so, um, well.....

Anyway, as much as dislike FDR I have to give him credit for ending prohibition. While the U.S. doesn't have tobacco prohibition between ever rising taxes, public bans, propaganda campaigns, add bans and junk science you guys are well on the way to that sort of situation.

I'd be more then willing to buy tobacco products illegally that became my only alternative.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old March 20th, 2009, 02:42 AM
Mackmaven's Avatar
Mackmaven
Status: Offline
Hookah Aficionado
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mar Vista, CA
Posts: 1,646
Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hajo Flettner View Post
Really? I suppose if think that a little thing called history and precedent doesn't count for much then I suppose you're right. I suppose that public statements of the the president, the secretary of health, the surgeon general, countless members of congress, endless add campaigns and public opinion polls don't say much one another on the matter after all. Likewise the stunning apathy among smokers here doesn't indicate much of anything either I suppose. I guess if I accept your standards of evidence I'd have to say that making an educated guess about what's coming is simply not possible. So much for empiricism.
Yes. Really. The best historical precedent if you want try and find something to what you're suggesting is the temperance movement. That was a very strong and politically charged movement, the legislation you've sighted thus far in no way reflects there being nearly the same amount of social or political backing.

Public statements by the president: If there's any precedent here, it's that you shouldn't expect so much from the president, or any politician for that matter.

The secretary of health and the surgeon general: The surgeon general also advocates healthy eating and living... America MUST be listening.

Endless ad campaigns: I don't know where you live, but I haven't seen these "ban tobacco ads" flavored or not. In fact, other than the amazingly well positioned Philip Morris funded Truth ads I haven't seen anything on TV about tobacco as of late.

Opinion poles: remember the two weeks when people really liked Sara Palin?

Empiricism: Like I said, citing context-free past anti-smoking legislation that passed does not in anyway build a case for your argument. If they're going to start chopping away at tobacco, there are virtually no precedents because even the temperance movement only succeeded under some very "right-time right-place" circumstances. In analysis terms, you'd be screwed for a regression model.

Now, to be perfectly fair, maybe you in fact know all the angles, maybe you're dumbing it down for our sake, maybe you're just not good at articulating it, but as it stands right now it's kinda bogus to talk down so much to the people who don't see this happening when their opinion is, as it would seem, no more or less viable than yours.

Last edited by Mackmaven; March 20th, 2009 at 02:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply Share
Share with your friends on facebook

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Reviews: Tobacco: How many bowls of Said Tobacco onehourlater Comments & Suggestions 3 December 17th, 2008 09:13 AM
top 3 fav tobacco m-stak Hookah Discussion 22 September 16th, 2008 08:57 PM
Beer Flavoured shisha/I found it in an ancient Egyptian Pyramid ShishaBubbly Hookah Discussion 6 September 12th, 2008 11:55 PM
The Witch ( photos comming latter ) Hajo Flettner Hookah Pipes 2 December 2nd, 2007 02:34 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:58 AM.

Skin Design By vBSkinworks



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2007 - 2012, Hookah Pro Inc.