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Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

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  #51  
Old March 20th, 2009, 03:50 AM
Hajo Flettner
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Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

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Originally Posted by Mackmaven View Post
The best historical precedent if you want try and find something to what you're suggesting is the temperance movement. That was a very strong and politically charged movement, the legislation you've sighted thus far in no way reflects there being nearly the same amount of social or political backing.[/quote]

Well no actually, that wasn't a precedent I was thinking of and not one i'd use. Instead, i'd point to the fantastic growth of the anti-tobacco lobby, the successes have had and the utter failure of the opposition to do anything about it but I understand you'd rather create a strawman. Also, my concern is stickily limited to the ability of the legislation in question to ban flavoured tobacco but again I understand your willingness to use strawman tactics and red hearings. If you havenít been asleep for the last 10 years or so youíll notice that the anti-tobacco agenda has become law all over the country but clearly that is something youíd rather not admit. I suppose that SCHIP didnít happen, public smoking bans are a mere imagination and things havenít really changed that much when it comes to the anti-tobacco agenda becoming law.

[/quote] Public statements by the president: If there's any precedent here, it's that you shouldn't expect so much from the president, or any politician for that matter.[/quote]

I see, so when the president publicly sides with the anti-tobacco lobby that doesnít mean anything because politicians donít practice what they preach. Iíll just have to ignore the fact that when It comes to the anti-tobacco legislative agenda he has carried the rhetoric into reality. I suppose I should also ignore the reality that the anti-tobacco lobby actually has a pretty good track record getting politicians to support them in public policy matter and Iíll also ignore the fact that the anti-tobacco cause is a popular one with the public. Basically, in order for your line of thought to hold water all one needs to do is shut out reality and simply assume that since Obama is a politician he wonít do what he says and ignore what he has done.

[/quote] The secretary of health and the surgeon general: The surgeon general also advocates healthy eating and living... America MUST be listening.[/quote]

Well, I guess I just wasnít thinking clearly. Surely no one cares what the surgeon general says about smoking policy which is why the reports on the matter put out by his office are so obscure. I mean itís not like anyone uses those reports to support public smoking bans. Thanks for the tip. As to the secretary of health obviously no one cares what he thinks and besides, I am certain that heíll recognize his irrelevancy and not exercise his authority under the bill in question to decide what constitutes flavoured tobacco needing to be regulated/banned by the bill. After all, government officials never take advantage of the power they have and since we already have established that they lie I am sure that he wonít do what he says and that his history of anti-tobacco lobbying will in no way shape how he handles his job.

[/quote] Endless ad campaigns: I don't know where you live, but I haven't seen these "ban tobacco ads" flavored or not. In fact, other than the amazingly well positioned Philip Morris funded Truth ads I haven't seen anything on TV about tobacco as of late.[/quote]

I donít recall say that the adds call for the banishment of tobacco but hey, why let a little thing like that get in the way of a good strawman? What I did mention is anti tobacco adds which are legion. The fact that the tobacco industry is forced to pay for them hasnít made them any less prevalent or any less hysterical or inaccurate. But hey, I am sure that a whole bunch of adds are around refuting the like of the truth campaign so itís all balanced right? But in any case, I am sure that those adds have had no effect as is clearly seen by the widespread popular appeal of the smokerís rights movement in all the mass media outlets and all the fawning attention that is lavished on my side by celebrates and the educational establishment. Likewise I suppose that the mainstream news media rarely gives any notice to anti-tobacco studies and they naturally are pretty concerned with giving equal exposure to criticism of such studies. Yep, I see now why I was wrong to think that anti-tobacco legislation has any chances of passing given the dearth of media attention given to the cause. Why hell, Iíll bet that any day now Iíll see Colby or someone like Sullum on Opra or the Tonight Show.

[/quote] Opinion poles: remember the two weeks when people really liked Sara Palin?[/quote]

You got a point there. Nothing demonstrates that opinion donít reflect public opinion more then a flawed survey during the election. Yep, I think itís safe to say that the public doesnít support anti-tobacco legislation and since a poll was wrong about Palin .I suppose that a few decades of public polling must be wrong about how tolerant the public is towards smokers. Clearly I have nothing to worry about in terms of the bill in question and all those smoking bans that have been passed over the years all over the country have caused huge voter revolts which is those same bans are all going to be repealed. Yep, that sounds right to me.

[/quote] Empiricism: Like I said, citing context-free past anti-smoking legislation that passed does not in anyway build a case for your argument. If they're going to start chopping away at tobacco, there are virtually no precedents because even the temperance movement only succeeded under some very "right-time right-place" circumstances. In economic terms, you'd be screwed for a regression model. [/quote]

Oh, O.K. I see now that all of those politicians and pressure groups that have had such stunning victories in getting the anti-tobacco agenda passed into law all over the country has nothing to with anything. Why I am sure that since pushing all the taxes, bans and such and getting a mountain of cash from the anti smoking lobby they felt really bad about themselves and are reading Sullum and have had a change of heart. I mean past behavior doesnít mean anything and since politicians all lie we can rest secure in the knowledge that what they have done was a mere fluke. Good plan.
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  #52  
Old March 20th, 2009, 10:15 AM
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Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

you know i just want to point something out, a lot of those accounts of this being pushed through congress are from a while ago ( http://7valleys.franbest.com/?p=25 ) 2 years + ago

-matt
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  #53  
Old March 20th, 2009, 10:32 AM
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Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Man, I just love people who stick their heads in the sand. "It can't possible happen to us!!" "They would never do that because that's just not right, anyone with common sense knows that!"(Please God don't tell me you think common sense exists inside the D.C. beltway. The place where duty to country has been subourned by the Holy Grail of modern government service: Re-Election)
I've got 80 acres to play in, so if it happens I guess I'll grow some of my own. :/


Change? Who the hell ever told you that all change would be good change.
Hope? Yeah, go on hoping that what the government does won't affect you.
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  #54  
Old March 20th, 2009, 11:01 AM
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Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Hajo brings up the point perfectly.

It boils down to "Flavored Cigs today, flavored tobacco tomorrow."

As with most restrictions...they tend to grow. Just like firearms legislation. Once rights start to wear the cloak of privilege, it all goes sour. Not all at once....but we get "lawed in" over time.

Class 3. True.... but you get screwed there. Price of the weapon if you can find it is outrageous. $200 tax per weapon.... and you gotta make sure you got your papers wherever you go with it. Another problem with that is that some CLEO's wont sign a class 3 trip form even if you are not a threat and have a clean record. The Cleo here wont sign for silencers. "Shall not be infringed" is shot there. Same with 03 licenses. You can buy old stuff direct...but you are subject to .Gov inspecting your collection at their will.

All of this is encroachment on rights AFAIC.
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  #55  
Old March 20th, 2009, 11:46 AM
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mattathayde
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Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

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Originally Posted by Lakemonster View Post
Hajo brings up the point perfectly.

It boils down to "Flavored Cigs today, flavored tobacco tomorrow."

As with most restrictions...they tend to grow. Just like firearms legislation. Once rights start to wear the cloak of privilege, it all goes sour. Not all at once....but we get "lawed in" over time.

Class 3. True.... but you get screwed there. Price of the weapon if you can find it is outrageous. $200 tax per weapon.... and you gotta make sure you got your papers wherever you go with it. Another problem with that is that some CLEO's wont sign a class 3 trip form even if you are not a threat and have a clean record. The Cleo here wont sign for silencers. "Shall not be infringed" is shot there. Same with 03 licenses. You can buy old stuff direct...but you are subject to .Gov inspecting your collection at their will.

All of this is encroachment on rights AFAIC.
while you are aright about stuff expanding, look at the majority of dems in congress now, they do not even want the words fire arm legislation to be mentioned because they know that it is stupid to try to do so, even if a lot of the reason is based on political reasons they still know it is stupid. and i think when it comes down to it the same thing would happen with tobacco legislation.

and while the class 3 may be infringement it is the best way to keep high power ordinance in proper hands, if it was as easy to get a 50 cal rifle as it is a .22 plinker then they would probably worm their way out to places we dont want them so much. i am pretty cool with the way the gun laws her here in va, they are pretty lax but give enough restriction in the way you go about things to keep the arms where they should be. and with the amount of tobacco companies here in va i also think that any tobacco legislation would be hard pressed to pass.

but again they talk about this stuff all the time, i know camels used to have a huge line of flavors but dont any more here in the states either due to legal action or political pressure and now the only flavored tobacco you can buy at convenience stores are: dip, blunts, and in very few places cloves and their flavored variants.

-matt
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  #56  
Old March 20th, 2009, 01:26 PM
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Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

are menthol cigarettes considered flavored cigarettes? I was just wondering cause i see them all over NJ and there is a ban on flavored cigs.
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  #57  
Old March 20th, 2009, 01:38 PM
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Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hajo Flettner View Post

Endless ad campaigns: I don't know where you live, but I haven't seen these "ban tobacco ads" flavored or not. In fact, other than the amazingly well positioned Philip Morris funded Truth ads I haven't seen anything on TV about tobacco as of late.

I don’t recall say that the adds call for the banishment of tobacco but hey, why let a little thing like that get in the way of a good strawman? What I did mention is anti tobacco adds which are legion. The fact that the tobacco industry is forced to pay for them hasn’t made them any less prevalent or any less hysterical or inaccurate. But hey, I am sure that a whole bunch of adds are around refuting the like of the truth campaign so it’s all balanced right? But in any case, I am sure that those adds have had no effect as is clearly seen by the widespread popular appeal of the smoker’s rights movement in all the mass media outlets and all the fawning attention that is lavished on my side by celebrates and the educational establishment. Likewise I suppose that the mainstream news media rarely gives any notice to anti-tobacco studies and they naturally are pretty concerned with giving equal exposure to criticism of such studies. Yep, I see now why I was wrong to think that anti-tobacco legislation has any chances of passing given the dearth of media attention given to the cause. Why hell, I’ll bet that any day now I’ll see Colby or someone like Sullum on Opra or the Tonight Show.
I'm not gonna bother reading the rest of that mess, check your editing. I will however comment on the Philip Morris ads, because my field is marketing strategy and advertising, and I'll say this: Through the anti-smoking ads Philip Morris has found the revival of its TV mass media advertising campaign and it's at the people's behest. If you've followed the evolution of these campaigns you may understand what I'm talking about.

Last edited by Mackmaven; March 20th, 2009 at 01:40 PM.
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  #58  
Old March 20th, 2009, 02:00 PM
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Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

The flavored cig ban has been on for a while...I miss those things but anyways. Even if they did just say ban tobacco in general it would never work because there would be so many people breaking the rule. If they put a tax increase on cigs or anything then I want my pay raise tax to go up.

Alcohol is way more dangerous than tobacco if they ban my shisha or cigs then I want alcohol to be banned too. I wouldn't worry because no matter what I am still going to get my nictoine fix for the day. Either learn how to make my own or find a way to buy black market
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  #59  
Old March 20th, 2009, 03:01 PM
Hajo Flettner
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Default Re: Comming Ban on Flavoured Tobacco

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackmaven View Post
I'm not gonna bother reading the rest of that mess, check your editing. I will however comment on the Philip Morris ads, because my field is marketing strategy and advertising, and I'll say this: Through the anti-smoking ads Philip Morris has found the revival of its TV mass media advertising campaign and it's at the people's behest. If you've followed the evolution of these campaigns you may understand what I'm talking about.
So, thatís it? A complaint about a few typos and the untenable claim that being forced by the government to pay for anti-tobacco adds is somehow good marketing for Phillip-Morris? That is, how to put this politely, an unsound approach to marketing. Still, youíve got nothing else when it comes my point about the anti-tobacco media climate so....

You said nothing of substance what so ever about the stunning success of the anti-tobacco legislative agenda, public hostility to tobacco, the support for said agenda in the U.S. government or that previous anti-tobacco legislative successes are a decent predictor of future legislative success given that political environment is more hostile to smokers then was a few years ago. I guess you used what youíve got.

Bottom line here people is that a legal president to ban various forms of tobacco on a national scale with interpretation of what exactly should be banned (menthol cigarettes are specifically excluded) to government officials openly hostile of hookahs is a very bad thing. A lot you guys prefer to believe thinking that somehow it wonít happen. I heard the same thing about SCHIP and every single tax increase before it, I heard the same thing about smoking bans, add bans, smokers losing kids because of ďsecond hand smoke endangermentĒ and a bunch of other stuff so I am not to hopeful and smokers are too complacent.
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