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Another Glass tip thread?

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  #26  
Old September 20th, 2009, 11:34 AM
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Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

Stay away from a certain look.
make it translucent colors that would match colors from different brands of hoses
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  #27  
Old September 20th, 2009, 11:49 AM
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Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

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Originally Posted by merkaba View Post
I don't know what you're talking about price wise, It would probably cost something ridiculous like that if I went to an American glass blower. Anyway, If I was going to do full production, I already know glass blowers in india, and for something like that it'd be under ten bucks a piece easy.

As far as material goes, pyrex can be over-rated and questionable sometimes. Good glass material now a days is borosilicate and another one that I want to say is schott glass.

And uh... since when does a wooden mouth-piece break when hitting concrete?

Pyrex is borosilicate...

Wood can split along the grain and if cut improperly can do so with concussive force. Even if cut properly thin walled wood has a good chance if not treated properly.

If the artist is fast they may be able to make one in an hour. Considering the cost of materials, the cost to run the furnace for the full time needed (heating the glass to working temp, work time and tempering) and other misc cost you are paying the artist a couple bucks an hour if it's a ten dollar tip. That is not what they deserve.

If you want to outsource you are going to deal with the possibility of questionable materials and minimum orders. Also that whole sweat shop thing. But That's only an issue if you have morals.
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  #28  
Old September 20th, 2009, 02:53 PM
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Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

Yeah, this got shut down basically because the blower i was going ot be workign with isnt as enterprising as he made himself out ot be. I will probably shoot him an email now and see what he is looking it. He was making a lot of glass pieces to sell in his shop when this started but he said it would be slowing down about now... so we'll see.
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  #29  
Old September 20th, 2009, 03:44 PM
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Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

Let us know killer B i would buy one
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  #30  
Old September 20th, 2009, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

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Originally Posted by merkaba View Post
I don't know what you're talking about price wise, It would probably cost something ridiculous like that if I went to an American glass blower. Anyway, If I was going to do full production, I already know glass blowers in india, and for something like that it'd be under ten bucks a piece easy.

As far as material goes, pyrex can be over-rated and questionable sometimes. Good glass material now a days is borosilicate and another one that I want to say is schott glass.

And uh... since when does a wooden mouth-piece break when hitting concrete?
pyrex is a trade name for an exact formulation of borosilica glass, its only sketchy if the person working it is lazy or doesnt know what they are doing. as to out sourcing, good luck with that, i wouldnt trust glass coming out of there, the egyptian glass is some of the crappiest garbage i have seen, right now our furnace at school has super crappy glass in it that i wouldnt even try to sell pieces from and its about 10 times better than the standard egyptian junk

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalutika View Post
Pyrex is borosilicate...

Wood can split along the grain and if cut improperly can do so with concussive force. Even if cut properly thin walled wood has a good chance if not treated properly.

If the artist is fast they may be able to make one in an hour. Considering the cost of materials, the cost to run the furnace for the full time needed (heating the glass to working temp, work time and tempering) and other misc cost you are paying the artist a couple bucks an hour if it's a ten dollar tip. That is not what they deserve.

If you want to outsource you are going to deal with the possibility of questionable materials and minimum orders. Also that whole sweat shop thing. But That's only an issue if you have morals.
for lamp working you wont be using a furnace just a torch and an electronic anealer, neither of those cost much to operate but your right there is still operating cost. a good glass worker though should be able to pull out more than 1 in an hour, i would be expecting 2-3 if they know what they are doing unless it is very intricate

-matt
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  #31  
Old September 20th, 2009, 10:05 PM
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Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

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Originally Posted by kalutika View Post
Pyrex is borosilicate...

Wood can split along the grain and if cut improperly can do so with concussive force. Even if cut properly thin walled wood has a good chance if not treated properly.

If the artist is fast they may be able to make one in an hour. Considering the cost of materials, the cost to run the furnace for the full time needed (heating the glass to working temp, work time and tempering) and other misc cost you are paying the artist a couple bucks an hour if it's a ten dollar tip. That is not what they deserve.

If you want to outsource you are going to deal with the possibility of questionable materials and minimum orders. Also that whole sweat shop thing. But That's only an issue if you have morals.
According to wiki pyrex is a brand name, though it seems used as a general term now a days. Originally it was borosilicate, but according to wiki they use tempered soda lime glass in the states and borosilicate in Europe. Dunno what lamp workers here are using here, every one I knew was lazy as hell and treated potential customers like crap. Probably why I would go to india instead of getting over charged.

As far as the sweat-shop spiel, it's not like children are slaving away with blow torches to make them. Morality wise, a lot of the hookahs floating around are chinese made but there's very little out-cry other then don't buy. Most glass products sold in the states are outsourced anyway.

Anyway, for something like that I'd expect to pay $2 or under from india per mouth piece which is a lot more affordable and realistic then paying $45 from a lamp worker in the states. Sure quality may suffer, but no one with a braincell is ever going to want to pay for something that's over twice the cost of a hose or a quarter of a price of an entire km.
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  #32  
Old September 20th, 2009, 10:11 PM
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Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

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Originally Posted by mattathayde View Post
pyrex is a trade name for an exact formulation of borosilica glass, its only sketchy if the person working it is lazy or doesnt know what they are doing. as to out sourcing, good luck with that, i wouldnt trust glass coming out of there, the egyptian glass is some of the crappiest garbage i have seen, right now our furnace at school has super crappy glass in it that i wouldnt even try to sell pieces from and its about 10 times better than the standard egyptian junk


for lamp working you wont be using a furnace just a torch and an electronic anealer, neither of those cost much to operate but your right there is still operating cost. a good glass worker though should be able to pull out more than 1 in an hour, i would be expecting 2-3 if they know what they are doing unless it is very intricate

-matt
Sorry to break it to you, but most of the glass work that shows up in shops is either from India or very rarely Europe. Even then, most of the European brands actually outsource their glass work to china. There are a lot of American glass blowers, but most of the one's I've talked to are too lazy to ever do anything or even give you a quote on something like this.
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  #33  
Old September 20th, 2009, 10:12 PM
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Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by merkaba View Post
no one with a braincell is ever going to want to pay for something that's over twice the cost of a hose or a quarter of a price of an entire km.
people have paid $90+ for MNH glass phunnels here
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  #34  
Old September 20th, 2009, 10:14 PM
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Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

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Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
people have paid $90+ for MNH glass phunnels here
I can't believe people are that.......
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  #35  
Old September 20th, 2009, 10:23 PM
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Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by merkaba View Post
I can't believe people are that.......
Um... i would like to say that not only is it illogical to outsource this project to indea because it is really just something i was doing for a personal piece that the blower then agreed to mass produce... but shipping would be REDICULOUS, and i would probably lose a pretty large percentage of the tips in shipping if the couriers are anything like the ones around here.

Besides. 30 dollars is a pretty low price for a nice tip.
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  #36  
Old September 20th, 2009, 10:32 PM
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Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by merkaba View Post
According to wiki pyrex is a brand name, though it seems used as a general term now a days. Originally it was borosilicate, but according to wiki they use tempered soda lime glass in the states and borosilicate in Europe. Dunno what lamp workers here are using here, every one I knew was lazy as hell and treated potential customers like crap. Probably why I would go to india instead of getting over charged.

As far as the sweat-shop spiel, it's not like children are slaving away with blow torches to make them. Morality wise, a lot of the hookahs floating around are chinese made but there's very little out-cry other then don't buy. Most glass products sold in the states are outsourced anyway.

Anyway, for something like that I'd expect to pay $2 or under from india per mouth piece which is a lot more affordable and realistic then paying $45 from a lamp worker in the states. Sure quality may suffer, but no one with a braincell is ever going to want to pay for something that's over twice the cost of a hose or a quarter of a price of an entire km.
i just bought 16 feet of pyrex tube, its borosilica glass, not soda lime. soda lime does not have the strength of borosilica glass, there is no reason to substitute it. lampworkers use boro for the most part, you can use soda lime but for anything that is going to be used and not just be a piece of decorative art they will stick to boro. the reason a lot of lampworkers are going to blow you off is that they deal with a lot of people who say they want to buy this that or the other and then fall through so they get pissed off trying to do commissions for stoners that will flake on them. show up cash in hand to talk to them to show them your are serious.

seriously though ya you can sell a lot of mouth tips at 10 bucks but they will suck, any one that understands the work that goes into them and wants the nice piece of craft will drop the cash. reducing quality to make a cheaper product is never acceptable

Quote:
Originally Posted by merkaba View Post
Sorry to break it to you, but most of the glass work that shows up in shops is either from India or very rarely Europe. Even then, most of the European brands actually outsource their glass work to china. There are a lot of American glass blowers, but most of the one's I've talked to are too lazy to ever do anything or even give you a quote on something like this.
im not sure if your referring to hookah stuff or to head shops, ya there is a lot of shit in shops though from the middle of no where but most of it is total shit, the vases we get for hookahs, are super seedy, super cordy, have stress cracks, and are not blown out evenly or even ground flat. american glass blowers dont want to give you a quote because people walk in and go "can you do this for 10 bucks" when its worth 200. a lamp working studio can be set up pretty cheap but the materials are not super cheap. its 5-20 bucks for a 20" length of 6-8 mm thick colored boro glass, tubing is 1-5 bucks per foot of tubing depending on size and thickness, so with the gas, electricity, and materials your at at least 5-10 bucks, then put on top the wage and general mark up, you looking 20-30 bucks for a small piece that took 30 mins to make.

hot shop blowing is going to cost even more for stuff like vases because its costs a huge amount more. for gods sake a good pipe and punty from spiral arts costs 350 for their standard work horse pipe and the large counter balance punty. the tools are going to run 800 bucks at least for your basic tools every gaffer needs to use then take into account at least 30 bucks per hour to rent time or close to that just to run a shop if you have your own.

the reason its cheaper over seas is a) substantially lower quality materials, b) reduced wages due to poverty levels, c) less skilled workers, d)less attention to details

good luck trying to sell some indian crap lampworking but i will happily go pay a friend 50 bucks to make a mouth tip or trade some work for one and get something that is well made

-matt
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  #37  
Old September 20th, 2009, 10:56 PM
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Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

my pyrex tip i got from chris was decently made, pretty sturdy, survived a lot of falls (i was stupid) although did not survive someone stepping on it....

i was expecting it to hold up to less, and would think 20-30bucks is enough.
---

as to glass bowls, i think its retarded enough to spend 5 bucks on a glass bowl, heat is horrible, and if it looks pretty, the tobacco and foil will hide that.
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  #38  
Old September 20th, 2009, 11:11 PM
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Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by merkaba View Post
According to wiki pyrex is a brand name, though it seems used as a general term now a days. Originally it was borosilicate, but according to wiki they use tempered soda lime glass in the states and borosilicate in Europe. Dunno what lamp workers here are using here, every one I knew was lazy as hell and treated potential customers like crap. Probably why I would go to india instead of getting over charged.

As far as the sweat-shop spiel, it's not like children are slaving away with blow torches to make them. Morality wise, a lot of the hookahs floating around are chinese made but there's very little out-cry other then don't buy. Most glass products sold in the states are outsourced anyway.

Anyway, for something like that I'd expect to pay $2 or under from india per mouth piece which is a lot more affordable and realistic then paying $45 from a lamp worker in the states. Sure quality may suffer, but no one with a braincell is ever going to want to pay for something that's over twice the cost of a hose or a quarter of a price of an entire km.
So forcing people to work for a terrible wage is only immoral if it's children? Adults don't get the same courtesy.
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  #39  
Old September 21st, 2009, 01:45 AM
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Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

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Originally Posted by kalutika View Post
So forcing people to work for a terrible wage is only immoral if it's children? Adults don't get the same courtesy.
You can't compare our economy to indias. We had a former student come and talk to us about practicing yoga in india, and according him you could live well on a dollar a day. To you it seems horrible and immoral but you live in a completely different society with different standards. I forget what branch of philosophy it was, but according to that particular sect it's actually wrong to even try to judge a culture because its impossible.

And anyway, glass blowing is a skill. Not something they would have kids do?
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  #40  
Old September 21st, 2009, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by photolinger View Post
my pyrex tip i got from chris was decently made, pretty sturdy, survived a lot of falls (i was stupid) although did not survive someone stepping on it....

i was expecting it to hold up to less, and would think 20-30bucks is enough.
---

as to glass bowls, i think its retarded enough to spend 5 bucks on a glass bowl, heat is horrible, and if it looks pretty, the tobacco and foil will hide that.
Yeah I made the mistake of buying a smiley bowl when he was around. Worst material for hookah bowls ever.
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  #41  
Old September 21st, 2009, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by mattathayde View Post
i just bought 16 feet of pyrex tube, its borosilica glass, not soda lime. soda lime does not have the strength of borosilica glass, there is no reason to substitute it. lampworkers use boro for the most part, you can use soda lime but for anything that is going to be used and not just be a piece of decorative art they will stick to boro. the reason a lot of lampworkers are going to blow you off is that they deal with a lot of people who say they want to buy this that or the other and then fall through so they get pissed off trying to do commissions for stoners that will flake on them. show up cash in hand to talk to them to show them your are serious.

seriously though ya you can sell a lot of mouth tips at 10 bucks but they will suck, any one that understands the work that goes into them and wants the nice piece of craft will drop the cash. reducing quality to make a cheaper product is never acceptable



im not sure if your referring to hookah stuff or to head shops, ya there is a lot of shit in shops though from the middle of no where but most of it is total shit, the vases we get for hookahs, are super seedy, super cordy, have stress cracks, and are not blown out evenly or even ground flat. american glass blowers dont want to give you a quote because people walk in and go "can you do this for 10 bucks" when its worth 200. a lamp working studio can be set up pretty cheap but the materials are not super cheap. its 5-20 bucks for a 20" length of 6-8 mm thick colored boro glass, tubing is 1-5 bucks per foot of tubing depending on size and thickness, so with the gas, electricity, and materials your at at least 5-10 bucks, then put on top the wage and general mark up, you looking 20-30 bucks for a small piece that took 30 mins to make.

hot shop blowing is going to cost even more for stuff like vases because its costs a huge amount more. for gods sake a good pipe and punty from spiral arts costs 350 for their standard work horse pipe and the large counter balance punty. the tools are going to run 800 bucks at least for your basic tools every gaffer needs to use then take into account at least 30 bucks per hour to rent time or close to that just to run a shop if you have your own.

the reason its cheaper over seas is a) substantially lower quality materials, b) reduced wages due to poverty levels, c) less skilled workers, d)less attention to details

good luck trying to sell some indian crap lampworking but i will happily go pay a friend 50 bucks to make a mouth tip or trade some work for one and get something that is well made

-matt
honestly, if you want to pay 50 fucks for a single mouth piece, that's cool. Obviously its going to better quality and better designed, but production wise it's not going to be something many people are going to want to drop the money on. It's a nonessential component, not going to effect the smoke or anything and the only major benefit I can think of is it could be easier to clean.

Other then that, if you actually wanted to market it to a larger audience, you gotta make affordable. Some people may think it's a great value at $50, but most wont. There's very little actual value in a glass mouth piece since it honestly doesn't do anything.

As far as the shipping goes, we've shipped glass material over seas before and the amount of broken glass is pretty limited depending on what's ordered. For something like this the limited quantity might be about 200-300 and probably for a decent price. As far as the cost of shipping goes, that price goes into the final price of the product.
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  #42  
Old September 21st, 2009, 08:38 AM
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Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

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Originally Posted by merkaba View Post
You can't compare our economy to indias. We had a former student come and talk to us about practicing yoga in india, and according him you could live well on a dollar a day. To you it seems horrible and immoral but you live in a completely different society with different standards. I forget what branch of philosophy it was, but according to that particular sect it's actually wrong to even try to judge a culture because its impossible.

And anyway, glass blowing is a skill. Not something they would have kids do?
you do know that a lot of glass blowers in places that have a big history of it start learning the trade as young as 10 if not younger some times, and to learn it you have to work in it. one prof at my school who is like a 7th generation glass worker gathered his first glass at 10.

even if wage is cheaper raw materials dont get cheaper, in fact the raw glass would get more expensive if anything, a lot of boro is coming from corning so that has to be imported into india or where ever your looking at, propane prices dont magically drop, oxygen prices dont magically drop, still have to pay for electricity. good quality materials are running right at your over all cost range, sure get shity materials and drop the price but the product will suffer

just because you find a place that has a lower wage doesnt mean you can just get a product cheaper. the 20 buck glass for vases is just that crappy 20 bucks pieces. a well made vase of that size totally blown by hand (as apposed to the moulds they use) would run 2-400 bucks easy and have no issues with it if you went to a glass blower here and got them to make a one off. if you had a production shop here mould blowing them your looking 40-100 depending on color, and how fast they can get the process to be. but again the glass isnts the shit of the glass world

-matt
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  #43  
Old September 21st, 2009, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mattathayde View Post
you do know that a lot of glass blowers in places that have a big history of it start learning the trade as young as 10 if not younger some times, and to learn it you have to work in it. one prof at my school who is like a 7th generation glass worker gathered his first glass at 10.

even if wage is cheaper raw materials dont get cheaper, in fact the raw glass would get more expensive if anything, a lot of boro is coming from corning so that has to be imported into india or where ever your looking at, propane prices dont magically drop, oxygen prices dont magically drop, still have to pay for electricity. good quality materials are running right at your over all cost range, sure get shity materials and drop the price but the product will suffer

just because you find a place that has a lower wage doesnt mean you can just get a product cheaper. the 20 buck glass for vases is just that crappy 20 bucks pieces. a well made vase of that size totally blown by hand (as apposed to the moulds they use) would run 2-400 bucks easy and have no issues with it if you went to a glass blower here and got them to make a one off. if you had a production shop here mould blowing them your looking 40-100 depending on color, and how fast they can get the process to be. but again the glass isnts the shit of the glass world

-matt
I don't think most of the indian glass manufactures follow the trade as its passed down in history. They deal in producing bulk products with little creativity. That might be true for some glowers, but this is factory work.

And as far as everything you've said above, I've bought more complicated pieces for $2 bucks a pop and have sold them before for a couple 100% markup. My family regularly orders products from india, china, and other countries. Some of the best selling products we get are from a glass company in india that also specializes in custom work. If you want to say that it's impossible, that's fine with me man. I'd attach a catalog with prices but obviously I can't.
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  #44  
Old September 21st, 2009, 10:34 AM
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Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

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Originally Posted by merkaba View Post
I don't think most of the indian glass manufactures follow the trade as its passed down in history. They deal in producing bulk products with little creativity. That might be true for some glowers, but this is factory work.

And as far as everything you've said above, I've bought more complicated pieces for $2 bucks a pop and have sold them before for a couple 100% markup. My family regularly orders products from india, china, and other countries. Some of the best selling products we get are from a glass company in india that also specializes in custom work. If you want to say that it's impossible, that's fine with me man. I'd attach a catalog with prices but obviously I can't.
you might be getting them at $2 a pop but they are cutting corners left and right to sell it that cheap, probably only flame annealing them to reduce costs yet reducing durability, cheaper low quality boro which will reduce durability and quality, using thinner glass to save money, etc

to the untrained eye the pieces may look fine but to a lampworker that knows what they are doing they would probably laugh at it

-matt
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  #45  
Old September 21st, 2009, 10:49 AM
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Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

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Originally Posted by mattathayde View Post
you might be getting them at $2 a pop but they are cutting corners left and right to sell it that cheap, probably only flame annealing them to reduce costs yet reducing durability, cheaper low quality boro which will reduce durability and quality, using thinner glass to save money, etc

to the untrained eye the pieces may look fine but to a lampworker that knows what they are doing they would probably laugh at it

-matt
pieces seemed pretty heavy to me, limited breakage traveling from India to the states, inside out lathe work etc. Might not hold up to your standards, but a $40 piece is probably not going to be 20x better then a 2 dollar one. If it's going to break, it's going to break. Just a matter of when. Personally I'd rather see a cheap one break then one that costs an arm and a leg.
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  #46  
Old September 21st, 2009, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by merkaba View Post
I don't think most of the indian glass manufactures follow the trade as its passed down in history. They deal in producing bulk products with little creativity. That might be true for some glowers, but this is factory work.

And as far as everything you've said above, I've bought more complicated pieces for $2 bucks a pop and have sold them before for a couple 100% markup. My family regularly orders products from india, china, and other countries. Some of the best selling products we get are from a glass company in india that also specializes in custom work. If you want to say that it's impossible, that's fine with me man. I'd attach a catalog with prices but obviously I can't.

If you believe that artisan work has no market then you really need to take a look at the community you are in. We buy hookahs. An expensive luxury product. And most of us tend toward the hand made, quality pieces in all regards. I'll take my hand thrown Tangiers funnel bowl over any outsourced replica any day. Take a look at how long the jet glass funnels stick around on MNH. Hell, i just came back from a smith where I bought a hand forged dagger.

People like quality and those of us with an appreciation for it will always buy from someone who loves their work, cares about the artistry of it and deserves good pay for keeping art alive.





Now, why can't you post the products your family deals in?
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  #47  
Old September 21st, 2009, 12:16 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 461
Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalutika View Post
If you believe that artisan work has no market then you really need to take a look at the community you are in. We buy hookahs. An expensive luxury product. And most of us tend toward the hand made, quality pieces in all regards. I'll take my hand thrown Tangiers funnel bowl over any outsourced replica any day. Take a look at how long the jet glass funnels stick around on MNH. Hell, i just came back from a smith where I bought a hand forged dagger.

People like quality and those of us with an appreciation for it will always buy from someone who loves their work, cares about the artistry of it and deserves good pay for keeping art alive.





Now, why can't you post the products your family deals in?
Well the catalog I was talking about had very little to do with 99.9% of the products we sell. If you want to check out our ebay store http://stores.shop.ebay.com/The-Fun-...__W0QQ_armrsZ1
There's only one specific product we buy from glass manufactures regularly, but that catalog also contains some garbage too.

We sell everything from italian charms, clothes, vintage games and systems, jewelery and party accessories. We deal a lot with wholesalers around the world since most of the products we carry aren't really produced in the states or are way over priced for the average buy it now customer. As of now we have over 3,000 products listed, we also have two different websites (one is just a site that links to our ebay products, the other is still in development).

We also branch into some other areas from time to time. I'm hoping to look into contacting some new wholesalers eventually to see if there's anything I can carry for the hookah community. I've looked a little bit into some Egyptian companies already but haven't done any research as of now.

As far as the buying specialty mouth pieces, if people are that interested etsy is a great source to get in touch with glass blowers who do custom work now that I think of it. Their prices are also rather reasonable if you're looking for no questions asked quality, though a good portion of the good glass blowers have long waits for custom orders.

Personally, for something like this I'd rather have them outsourced if I was serious about selling them in a store due to price and waiting periods
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Old September 21st, 2009, 04:54 PM
mattathayde's Avatar
mattathayde
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Richmond/Yorktown VA
Posts: 3,779
Default Re: Another Glass tip thread?

low price, high quality, short time

pick 2, you are choosing cheap and fast, thus quality will suffer

-matt
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