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Obama Signed it

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  #51  
Old August 26th, 2009, 05:58 PM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

when i read it, it looked that it was totally restricted to cigs as to the banned stuff. i really doubt there will be much attack on flavored cigars which i think will get hit well before shisha does (honestly walk down the street and ask people if they know what a hookah is or what a cigar is, i bet 99.9% will know what a cigar is but i bet a large number of people, especially older individuals, wont know what a hookah is)

i think its stupid to take out "light" and "mild" but what ever, but the flavored tobacco thing is what i have issues with, all the studies seem to point that very few teens smoke flavored cigs (and honestly it might be because they were not easy to get because when i smoked i know i sure wanted to try them but never could find them).

i am very glad though there is a chemical disclosure because i personally believe its the additives that cause/increase most of the issues with people (addiction, illness, etc) and with them now being in the public eye i think we might get a more natural cig

-matt
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  #52  
Old August 26th, 2009, 05:59 PM
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HW, good post! I agree with a lot of it and yeah, I lack the and inclination to start digging up a bunch of papers and stuff to get into a debate about the FDA in general. I do have points which Iíll state quickly.

(2) A consensus exists within the scientific and medical communities that tobacco products are inherently dangerous and cause cancer, heart disease, and other serious adverse health effects.

HW: True

Me: I suppose Iíd say that is true but it would be more accurate to say that the risk factors are often wildly exaggerated and biased making a reasonable estimate of the risk of smoking more difficult.

(6) Because past efforts to restrict advertising and marketing of tobacco products have failed adequately to curb tobacco use by adolescents, comprehensive restrictions on the sale, promotion, and distribution of such products are needed.

HW: True, I don't think anyone can dispute this. The purpose of the act is to eliminate smoking in minors before being at a legally responsible age to make their own choice free from peer pressure and wrong parenting.

Me: It seems that a great deal of regulation with respect to tobacco advertising has existed for a great many years now and since adolescent smoking tobacco use has declined a great deal it appears that those efforts are successful. As a result I donít think that further restrictions are needed. Smoking by minors will not be eliminated for the simple reason that smoking is pleasurable and some kids will ignore the anti-tobacco campaigns. Companies need to advertise and itís impossible to prevent kids from seeing those adds or knowing about tobacco. The enforcement of current restrictions should suffice in my view.

(7) Federal and State governments have lacked the legal and regulatory authority and resources they need to address comprehensively the public health and societal problems caused by the use of tobacco products.

HW: Federal Yes, State No. The states have been largely ignoring the issue due to state income from tobacco sales taxes. The Federal Government let the decision rest upon the States, and on this specific issue, States failed.

Me: Given that a massive, all pervasive anti-smoking campaign has been on going for decades I fail to see why state governments should duplicate those efforts since state governments have lots of more pressing problems to confront and a declining revenue base to support them.

(8) Federal and State public health officials, the public health community, and the public at large recognize that the tobacco industry should be subject to ongoing oversight.

HW: What industry shouldn't ?

Me: That depends upon what you mean by oversight. I have no problem limiting advertising near schools, banning sales to minors and restricting adds that target minors. The problem is that regulations have a way of expanding and stifling industry. Given the political clout of the anti-tobacco lobby, public hysteria and the nature of governments to expand I have a hard time believing that oversight wonít end up making tobacco even more expensive then it already is.

(11) The sale, distribution, marketing, advertising, and use of such products substantially affect interstate commerce through the health care and other costs attributable to the use of tobacco products.

HW: Well they certainly will after Obamas new healthcare system comes into place.

Me: It seems that anything sold in more then one state effects interstate commerce yet some how I doubt that should be sufficient excuse for state control of said industry. As to health care costs Iíve pointed out plenty of times evidence that indicates tobacco consumers are a net contributor to state coffers since they have lower life expectancies then the rest of society. I can also point out a great many products and life style choices that have substantial costs associated with them that makes no tax payments at all. Saying that anything with a social cost is grounds for state intervention would mean the end of liberty.

(12) It is in the public interest for Congress to enact legislation that provides the Food and Drug Administration with the authority to regulate tobacco products and the advertising and promotion of such products. The benefits to the American people from enacting such legislation would be significant in human and economic terms.

HW: Depends on whos terms you're talking about. Regulation in Advertising is a suitable thing, people are gullible, the government looks to protect the people (In theory), some regulation of corporate advertising is reasonable. Economic terms, possibly, how much money are we going to lose in tax revenue from tobacco, will it justify the healthcare savings ? Most certainly after this round of healthcare reform, but what about current medical expense reform for advertising. Note advertising is the key problem popping up here again and again.

Me: I donít like the idea that people are so gullible that itís up to government to decide what they can and canít be exposed to even if a public health issue is at stake. To the extent that ad restricts can reasonablely be expected to make a product less well know or appealing to minors without restricting the advertiser access to adult consumers I am for it. In the end it is the responsiblity of the parent(s) to keep children tobacco free. Other wise I agree fully with what you say.

(13) Tobacco use is the foremost preventable cause of premature death in America. It causes over 400,000 deaths in the United States each year, and approximately 8,600,000 Americans have ******* illnesses related to smoking.

HW: Possibly, but was it from smoking cigarettes ? Camp Fires ? Cigars ? Pipes ? NHT ? Shisha ? Rubber Factory Fumes ? Shady call at best, and not all smokers get diseases, and many non-smokers get "smoking related illnesses" as well.

Me: Actually the deaths caused by tobacco use are totally bogus since they are based upon a highly flawed model being pushed by the anti-tobacco lobby. I posted a bunch of stuff about that before which I assume is still floating around the forum. Colbyís site has a bunch of stuff on that subject.

(15) Advertising, marketing, and promotion of tobacco products have been especially directed to attract young persons to use tobacco products, and these efforts have resulted in increased use of such products by youth. Past efforts to oversee these activities have not been successful in adequately preventing such increased use.

HW: Duh, young people live longer than old people. Its called brand awareness. Coca-Cola does it too. However, the TYPE of marketing is whats in question here, not the actual act of advertisement

Me: I canít think of any tobacco advertising campaign directed at minors since Joe Camel went away. Given that past restrictions have reduced tobacco consumption by minors and that ultimately parents, not the state, are responsible for their own children I donít see the point in spending more money taken from the public to pay for telling wildly exaggerated risks to the public and trumpeting more low quality research.

(16) In 2005, the cigarette manufacturers spent more than $13,000,000,000 to attract new users, retain current users, increase current consumption, and generate favorable long-term attitudes toward smoking and tobacco use.

HW: How much money did the US government spend in 2005 to sway public opinion in polls ? How much money did the US government spend in 2005 on pork politics and paperwork ? The US Congress shouldn't chastise anyone for spending money.

Me: Frankly I doubt that 13 billion bucks has been spent marketing tobacco to new smokers and I wonder how that figure was obtained? I do know that the tobacco industry spends a lot of money subsidizing anti-tobacco campaigns which is outrageous and I know that for decades an anti-tobacco campaign funded with tax money has been used to sway public opinion and generate shoddy research. I also know that tobacco companies havenít been allowed to respond to these attacks since they are so heavily restricted in terms of advertising.

(7) to continue to permit the sale of tobacco products to adults in conjunction with measures to ensure that they are not sold or accessible to underage purchasers;

HW: Bam : Right There : The Big One : NO BAN ON TOBACCO SALES

Me: Sorta true. What they want to do is make tobacco so expensive that itís effectively banned for anyone that isnít rich.

(9) to promote cessation to reduce disease risk and the social costs associated with tobacco-related diseases; and

HW: Again, realistic, Unbiased information disclosure.

Me: If we had tobacco consumption studies that were not so openly biased and hysterical the public would be better off.

(10) to strengthen legislation against illicit trade in tobacco products.

HW: Fighting the war on illegal tobacco imports / growth. Ok... no problems with that either.

Me: When tobacco becomes excessively taxed as is now the case you promote organized crime.
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  #53  
Old August 26th, 2009, 06:19 PM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

Quote:
Originally Posted by HookahWaffle View Post
Most likely you'll find that the school agreed to distribute those as part of the local "Anti Tobacco Club" on campus. If you really want to do your part to help the hookah community, write or in person contact your school officials, explain the lack of serious scientific studies regarding hookah, and even invite a few of them down to the local bar.

In no way shape or form should the student body allow the administration to circulate falsified documentation that gives out misinformation.
As the vice president of the cigar/pipe/hookah enthusiast club on campus, I plan to do something.

Last edited by hookahman1988; August 27th, 2009 at 01:15 AM.
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  #54  
Old August 26th, 2009, 07:39 PM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

whether this is going to affect us or not, expect a big nakhla order from me on the next big sale. i think it's just interpretation of the bill, and i interpret it to not be good for us
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  #55  
Old August 26th, 2009, 09:03 PM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

i got way to much heat today to read all the stuff really but i just remembered something i forgot to say.

ok, lets be real here, Philip Morris has a HUGE hand in congress, between lobbyists and probably bribes and the like, how many flavored cigs does PM make i dont remember them doing it. now RJ Reynolds and djarum on the other hand have or still do. PM wont have to change much if anything in the short term where as djarum is kicked out of the states and when the bill originally started to get pushed in (almost 10 years ago) camel was pumping out a crap load of flavored cigs. so really the bill was probably more about killing competition for some parties involved.

once(IF) the flavored tobacco expands to other things there is going to be a huge issue, some cigar smokers will freak out (a lot of big cigar smokers have money, the question is how many of the high rollers smoke flavored/infused cigars) , then you have chewing tobacco... and come on, its a more rural/southern thing to dip and of course its more common for those people to own firearms, how many people in congress really want to piss off gun owners any more

as to hookah i still just think its a super small % of tobacco and really its not hitting a lot into companies like PM and also the "culture" card could be played a bit and probably prevent it from getting messed with

-matt
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  #56  
Old August 27th, 2009, 01:15 AM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattathayde View Post
i got way to much heat today to read all the stuff really but i just remembered something i forgot to say.

ok, lets be real here, Philip Morris has a HUGE hand in congress, between lobbyists and probably bribes and the like, how many flavored cigs does PM make i dont remember them doing it. now RJ Reynolds and djarum on the other hand have or still do. PM wont have to change much if anything in the short term where as djarum is kicked out of the states and when the bill originally started to get pushed in (almost 10 years ago) camel was pumping out a crap load of flavored cigs. so really the bill was probably more about killing competition for some parties involved.

once(IF) the flavored tobacco expands to other things there is going to be a huge issue, some cigar smokers will freak out (a lot of big cigar smokers have money, the question is how many of the high rollers smoke flavored/infused cigars) , then you have chewing tobacco... and come on, its a more rural/southern thing to dip and of course its more common for those people to own firearms, how many people in congress really want to piss off gun owners any more

as to hookah i still just think its a super small % of tobacco and really its not hitting a lot into companies like PM and also the "culture" card could be played a bit and probably prevent it from getting messed with

-matt
I wonder what the implications on the US relationship with Indonesia will be by shutting out a product that is one of their largest exports to one of their bigger markets? I saw a few articles about this in the news a few weeks ago when this bill was gaining the momentum to be passed.
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  #57  
Old August 27th, 2009, 02:05 AM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

Good thing I quit cigarettes 2 weeks ago. =)
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  #58  
Old August 27th, 2009, 07:07 AM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

Quote:
Originally Posted by hookahman1988 View Post
I wonder what the implications on the US relationship with Indonesia will be by shutting out a product that is one of their largest exports to one of their bigger markets? I saw a few articles about this in the news a few weeks ago when this bill was gaining the momentum to be passed.
i just kind of doubt we are one of their biggest markets, not a whole lot of people smoke(d) cloves compared to normal cigs (granted havent looked into it really but it just doesnt seem right to me). but it is a good point on how it might cause other issues

-matt
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  #59  
Old August 27th, 2009, 09:09 AM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattathayde View Post
i just kind of doubt we are one of their biggest markets, not a whole lot of people smoke(d) cloves compared to normal cigs (granted havent looked into it really but it just doesnt seem right to me). but it is a good point on how it might cause other issues

-matt
I found the article I was thinking of again. US makes up 1/5 of the market and 99% of the kreteks available in the US come from Indonesia.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...KwA&refer=home
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  #60  
Old August 27th, 2009, 11:01 AM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

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Originally Posted by hookahman1988 View Post
I found the article I was thinking of again. US makes up 1/5 of the market and 99% of the kreteks available in the US come from Indonesia.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...KwA&refer=home
ill try and read it when i have more time later (this school schedule is gona kick my butt) but that is interesting that we are 20% of the kretek market, surprising really

-matt
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  #61  
Old August 27th, 2009, 11:40 AM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

Quite a few of the Tobacco giants of the USA still have Tobacco farms in Countries Like Zimbabwe and South Africa and other countries how is the FDA going to regulate those producers.

I can see that the FDA inspectors will have more than their hands full with Old Mugabe who willfully has people arrested and thrown in jail for a couple of weeks and then released after his goons has finished playing with them.

HookahWaffle so I can by rights tell the FDA to take their bill and put it where the sun don't shine as I am long past young teenager and to not touch my Tobacco

(lol I can do that for I am in South Africa)

The only thing here is to see how the FDA interprets there new found freedom and to move from there.
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  #62  
Old August 27th, 2009, 02:50 PM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

I was wondering how the FDA plans on regulating/certifying tobacco processing plants in places like occupied Rhodesia and South Africa since the local government bureaucrats don't exactly welcome foreign dictates and are unlikely to be able to meet new regulations if they wanted to. Honestly doing that sort of thing is not easy in places like Iran or Tunisia that are actively courting foreign investors and export sales.

As to big American tobacco companies I can't see why they would want to ban flavoured cigarettes or since they are not that big of a market and they could take it over easily if they wanted to. It also seems that wouldn't want to give the FDA carte blanche to regulate how they conduct business. My guess is that since the big American tobacco companies make snuff, machine made cigars/cigarrillos, snus & chew they will also get into shisha tobacco if they think the market is big enough. Instead, it seems that big tobacco isn't interested in narghile stuff since they don't view it as having enough market share to worry about just as I don't think they ever felt threatened by cloves cigarette makers.
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  #63  
Old August 27th, 2009, 03:25 PM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

This bill is going to be like a rollercoaster with a lot of ups and downs for the hookah/shisha industry. Only time will tell. If we hear anything in Texas about shisha being outlawed we will email out all our clients, twitter the news, and warn everyone on the forums. Doubt it will be anytime soon though, seeing the bill just got signed.
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  #64  
Old August 27th, 2009, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

Personally, I have planned on leaving this country for a while. This just gives me another reason to do so. If this is freedom, then Long live the Queen. If it does get to the point where they attack shisha and hookah smokers, I move a peaceful Smoke-Out be put into play. I may be young but I am not stupid and I don't place my blame on addiction nor do I blame advertisements for why I smoke. I made my choice and I am responsible to this day choosing to smoke or not to. Who knows what tomorrow may bring?
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  #65  
Old August 27th, 2009, 07:53 PM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

I think a few people missed the point of the Bill in regards to overseas manufacture.

The Bill doesn't give the FDA rights to block Non-USA companies from producing anything outside the USA, but it DOES give them the ability to place a federal embargo on imports of materials that are not FDA approved, same as any other market.

Basically nothing will stop south africa, egypt, india, ect from producing cigarettes how ever they want, they just wont be allowed to import them to the USA.
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  #66  
Old August 27th, 2009, 09:26 PM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

when you tell a teenage not to do something, they turn around and do it.

reverse psychology.
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  #67  
Old August 27th, 2009, 09:34 PM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselSmoke View Post
when you tell a teenage not to do something, they turn around and do it.

reverse psychology.
Actually, we tell a lot of teenagers to not go murder anyone, drive their cars into trees, jump off buildings, stick forks in light sockets, ect, and I don't see many teenagers doing that stuff.

They pick up smoking and drinking from family / friends who give the stereotype that its "cool" rather than a personal choice.

We arn't talking about 8 year olds who get told "no" and start chain smoking to be rebellious of their mother, we're talking about kids in the 12-17 demographic who get involved with smoking through non-personal choices related to enjoyment of the hobby / habit. They do it from social and media pressure, not personal interest.
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  #68  
Old August 27th, 2009, 09:58 PM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

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Originally Posted by HookahWaffle View Post
Actually, we tell a lot of teenagers to not go murder anyone, drive their cars into trees, jump off buildings, stick forks in light sockets, ect, and I don't see many teenagers doing that stuff.

Haha, i think if you are telling a teen not to do any of that it maybe too late, they usually learn that kind of stuff alot earlier in life.

but i agree with you teens do pick up smoking that way too.

Last edited by DieselSmoke; August 27th, 2009 at 10:02 PM.
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  #69  
Old August 27th, 2009, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselSmoke View Post
Haha, i think if you are telling a teen not to do any of that it maybe too late, they usually learn that kind of stuff alot earlier in life.
Yeah, and most kids ARNT educated earlier in life about the hazards of drinking and smoking, their education starts around the same time peer pressure promotes it.
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  #70  
Old August 27th, 2009, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

If you all are serious everyone needs to contact their congressmen. Heck I'm sure we could start a petitionagainst it this is America so we have the right to petition and contact our congressmen!
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  #71  
Old August 27th, 2009, 10:24 PM
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Default Re: Obama Signed it

Quote:
Originally Posted by HookahWaffle View Post
Yeah, and most kids ARNT educated earlier in life about the hazards of drinking and smoking, their education starts around the same time peer pressure promotes it.
i agree with you, you do have a valid point.
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