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The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

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  #1  
Old December 16th, 2009, 09:40 PM
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Default The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

I've been seeing this a lot, and after reading the article in the news section here I have to ask if this is just more falsified propaganda.

"The carbon monoxide content is much higher in hookah smokers than in cigarette smokers. A study comparing hookah smokers who smoked between 10-40 minutes and cigarette smokers and non smokers found that the concentration of carboxyhemoglobin (a degree of measuring carbon monoxide) in hookah smokers was 10.6% compared to cigarette smokers (6.5%) and non smokers (1.6%). The more carbon monoxide in the blood stream means less oxygen the various parts of your body will receive. This could very well correlate with the light headed feeling many hookah smokers claim to have after a session."

The only time I've gotten lightheaded was when I was building the tolerance toward the tobacco. For a while, when increased my smoking, I had gotten achyness/weakness in my legs and head pressure, but sure enough, that slowly started to go away and as far as I know you can't build a tolerance to CO like that. So what the hell man?
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  #2  
Old December 16th, 2009, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

wouldnt be surprised if their study consisted of relatively inexperienced smokers with quick lites for coals.
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  #3  
Old December 16th, 2009, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

The numbers are misleading. It's nothing new but as stated often times these tests are done very improperly which can greatly skew the results.

I am wondering why they don't use the actual measure for CO exposure. Parts per million (ppm) is the most accepted concentration and exposure measure. Possibly because it doesn't sound as scary. And maybe they should mention that a high ambient concentration of 100 ppm will cause headaches in... 3-5 hours? Huh.

Regarding blood concentration they should also mention that discomfort occurs when blood concentration reaches 30% or higher. 10% isn't great for you but it's not going to kill you. 50% is where you get serious complications on average. If 40 minutes results in 10% then let's just assume that you would reach 30% after two solid hours. I've smoked for that without any ill effects.

If they are recording levels that will cause effects faster than 100 ppm then the concentrations in the smoke would have to be high enough to set off a CO detector, which go off at 100 ppm on average, and not just when the coals are lighting.

Last edited by kalutika; December 16th, 2009 at 10:21 PM.
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  #4  
Old December 16th, 2009, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

Has anyone lit Aklah coals? Those things smoke like crazy when lighting. If those don't set off a smoke detector when lighting then I don't think they will harm me that much once they're lit. Smoking's harmful, we all know that, so why try and scare us with new statistics every few weeks?
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  #5  
Old December 16th, 2009, 10:30 PM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

i hate these "statistics" because as kalutika already said. they are skew'd.

advice: don't believe scientists and mcgruff is not your friend!
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  #6  
Old December 16th, 2009, 11:41 PM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JiX' View Post
i hate these "statistics" because as kalutika already said. they are skew'd.

advice: don't believe scientists and mcgruff is not your friend!
Believe the scientists that you have looked into. Actually read the studies instead of just the conclusions. Check the facts and see if they make sense to you.

One of the major problems is that these studies are interpreted by people with agendas and then given to you third party and often edited because people are too lazy to read the information themselves. Or, even from the start they are conducted/funded by people who want a certain result.
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  #7  
Old December 16th, 2009, 11:58 PM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

The way I see it is that if they claim how bad the hookah is, they need to realize one thing, which is that cigarettes are worse. The tar created in smoking cigarettes over time does more harm than this high concentration of carbon monoxide. So if they are trying to come up with reasons to ban hookah, cigarettes should be banned first, its much more damaging to the human body than hookah.
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  #8  
Old December 16th, 2009, 11:59 PM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

I tend to not give a shit. I enjoy my short time on this earth the way I want to. yeah it's bad, I dont need to know the numbers.
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  #9  
Old December 17th, 2009, 12:18 AM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

Honestly I think its a hit and miss. Ive been seeing a lot of posts on other forums with people claiming that their carbon monoxide detectors were going off, but it was while lighting the coals. Not while smoking. Some real studies need to be done about this.
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  #10  
Old December 17th, 2009, 12:27 AM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
I tend to not give a shit. I enjoy my short time on this earth the way I want to. yeah it's bad, I dont need to know the numbers.
This sums it up for me.
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  #11  
Old December 17th, 2009, 01:06 AM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
I tend to not give a shit. I enjoy my short time on this earth the way I want to. yeah it's bad, I dont need to know the numbers.
my feelings exactly.

i know that it is less harmful than the average marlboro, but smoking tobacco is smoking tobacco. i'm only gonna be here for 60 more years.
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  #12  
Old December 17th, 2009, 01:38 AM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
I tend to not give a shit. I enjoy my short time on this earth the way I want to. yeah it's bad, I dont need to know the numbers.
agreed and boo hoo maybe i like being light headed after a smoke
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  #13  
Old December 17th, 2009, 03:59 PM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

CO has me concerned as it has links, in high enough levels, to memory impairment and brain damage, everything else I could care less about...
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  #14  
Old December 17th, 2009, 04:39 PM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

Yeah throw three quick lights on a bowl .. then hit them with a torch while they "do their study, as they are being ignited" and of course there is going to be high CO! While their at it they might as well run a vacuum on the line for a constant hour just for good measure!

I don't buy into this .. and HATE listening to someone tell me .. "It's like smoking a hundred cigarettes in an hour!" ummm I would be throwing up after the first three cigarettes in a row!
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  #15  
Old December 17th, 2009, 06:02 PM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
I tend to not give a shit. I enjoy my short time on this earth the way I want to. yeah it's bad, I dont need to know the numbers.
i'm on this train as well. couldn't have put it better myself.
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  #16  
Old December 17th, 2009, 06:10 PM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

Its all BS! They can make anything look the way they want it to look. They just did a studdy and it shows that 100% of people that have eaten bread have died or will die at some time in their life. (yes this is fake)

Its just all sillyness. Im all for riding the happy train and doin as i please regardles of the statistics and numbers. IMO People dont smoke cause they think its harmless. People smoke cause its enjoyable.

I'll jump off my soap box now.
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  #17  
Old December 17th, 2009, 08:12 PM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

its probably true, so why try to pretend its not bad for us? lol but I could care less because this is my only life and I'm going to indulge in things that bring me pleasure
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  #18  
Old December 18th, 2009, 05:40 AM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

I have only this to say:
I smoke not because I think it's not hurting me, I smoke because I enjoy it.
We're not ignorant, we know what this, and other "bad" habits are doing and could do to us, we still partake because to us, enjoying a (potentially) shorter life makes more sense than not enjoying a (potentially) longer one.
We know what we're doing, and those that don't partake shouldn't have any rite to try and stop us. Showing me numbers or statistics isn't going to make me want to smoke any less, and if someone is so weak in their opinion that they can be made to change their mind because of a set of biased statistics, they've got some serious reconsidering to do.
That's just what I think.

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  #19  
Old December 18th, 2009, 05:54 AM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

Yeah these kind of studies do not effect me at all. I smoke because I enjoy it and nearly everything enjoyable seems to be bad for you.
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  #20  
Old December 18th, 2009, 06:06 AM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Pyramid View Post
I've been seeing this a lot, and after reading the article in the news section here I have to ask if this is just more falsified propaganda.

"The carbon monoxide content is much higher in hookah smokers than in cigarette smokers. A study comparing hookah smokers who smoked between 10-40 minutes and cigarette smokers and non smokers found that the concentration of carboxyhemoglobin (a degree of measuring carbon monoxide) in hookah smokers was 10.6% compared to cigarette smokers (6.5%) and non smokers (1.6%). The more carbon monoxide in the blood stream means less oxygen the various parts of your body will receive. This could very well correlate with the light headed feeling many hookah smokers claim to have after a session."

The only time I've gotten lightheaded was when I was building the tolerance toward the tobacco. For a while, when increased my smoking, I had gotten achyness/weakness in my legs and head pressure, but sure enough, that slowly started to go away and as far as I know you can't build a tolerance to CO like that. So what the hell man?
hmm...it is probably true, or an easier way to put it (we dont get oxygen in us when we inhale alot of smoke).
So the queston with this article is what you want to highlight with it...that hokkahsmkoing is more dangerous then ciggarettes? thats probably wrong anyway...
that carbon monoxide is lethal or in normal potions poisionus? wrong again...

but as a lot of things it can get poisionus for your body if you overdo it....
and it wasnt a chocker to me that we get alot more less air if we are sitting and chainsmoking for 3 hours in a row in a bad ventilated room....

the thing we should take care of about this article is that hookah smoking as all other good things should be taken in moderation....
and with responsebility....(as for how long you smoke?, how intense you smoke?, have you eaten before and have some water near?, hows the ventilation? breaks, hookah wont die away if you take a 5 min break every now and then? and so on....)

we should take care of every new article about hookah and look into them, surely not be afraid to give critics of course.
this way we will mature and be more responsibel in the way we smoke....

/LonelyBoy
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  #21  
Old December 18th, 2009, 07:55 AM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalutika View Post
The numbers are misleading. It's nothing new but as stated often times these tests are done very improperly which can greatly skew the results.

I am wondering why they don't use the actual measure for CO exposure. Parts per million (ppm) is the most accepted concentration and exposure measure. Possibly because it doesn't sound as scary. And maybe they should mention that a high ambient concentration of 100 ppm will cause headaches in... 3-5 hours? Huh.

Regarding blood concentration they should also mention that discomfort occurs when blood concentration reaches 30% or higher. 10% isn't great for you but it's not going to kill you. 50% is where you get serious complications on average. If 40 minutes results in 10% then let's just assume that you would reach 30% after two solid hours. I've smoked for that without any ill effects.

If they are recording levels that will cause effects faster than 100 ppm then the concentrations in the smoke would have to be high enough to set off a CO detector, which go off at 100 ppm on average, and not just when the coals are lighting.
Carboxyhemoglobin levels is what is used in the diagnosis of carbon monoxide poisoning because it is a measure of how much CO made it into one's system as opposed to the ambient CO levels one was exposed to.

While clinical effects do vary from person to person, I would personally consider levels over 30% to be fairly serious as symptoms like nausea, vomiting, severe headaches, impacted vision, asphyxia, loss of judgment, etc. start to become common. Headaches and dizziness can occur at just over 10% and levels above 50% can put you in a coma. For comparison, a one pack a day smoker generally has levels around 5% and a two pack a day smoker has roughly a little under twice that.

I agree that linear extrapolation of the study's results would not be accurate at all. If it were that would mean smoking for 5 hours straight would be fatal or near fatal depending on the person. FWIW, I smoke in excess of 2 hours straight and indoors with no noticeable effects on a regular basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sambooka View Post
Yeah throw three quick lights on a bowl .. then hit them with a torch while they "do their study, as they are being ignited" and of course there is going to be high CO! While their at it they might as well run a vacuum on the line for a constant hour just for good measure!

I don't buy into this .. and HATE listening to someone tell me .. "It's like smoking a hundred cigarettes in an hour!" ummm I would be throwing up after the first three cigarettes in a row!
What they measured was the level of hemoglobins in the blood that have binded with CO so assuming they are forthright with their findings, it would be an indicator of how much CO the smoker actually consumed during the entire session and not just how much CO was in the air when they lit off the charcoals. While I agree for the results to be taken seriously it should be known what their setup is, how/where they were smoking, and what their levels were prior to starting, a test like this would be more realistic as far as what a hookah smoker goes through but it is limited to only CO exposure.

To the OP, is it possible to link to the article?
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  #22  
Old December 18th, 2009, 11:12 AM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
I tend to not give a shit. I enjoy my short time on this earth the way I want to. yeah it's bad, I dont need to know the numbers.
well said bungle
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  #23  
Old December 18th, 2009, 11:39 AM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunkel View Post
Yeah these kind of studies do not effect me at all. I smoke because I enjoy it and nearly everything enjoyable seems to be bad for you.
Truth. Tobacco, alcohol, junk food ect.. are all bad for us, but people do these things anyway b/c they get satisfaction from them. As long as this stuff is in moderation and not overused, you can still have an enjoyable and pretty long life.
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  #24  
Old December 18th, 2009, 12:28 PM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
I tend to not give a shit. I enjoy my short time on this earth the way I want to. yeah it's bad, I dont need to know the numbers.

Precisely, don't give into mass paranoia like everyone else in society is starting to do. It's like someone being scared to go outside because there was a murder in new york city, when they live in podunk ohio. It's just craziness. Most people that have bad hookah experiences is because they aren't thoroughly educated about hookah. The worst experiences I've had with lightheadedness is from using quicklight coals that weren't fully ashed over. Never ever start smoking a bowl if your coals have any trace of black in them.
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  #25  
Old December 18th, 2009, 01:40 PM
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Default Re: The new hookah danger, high CO levels...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Pyramid View Post
I've been seeing this a lot, and after reading the article in the news section here I have to ask if this is just more falsified propaganda.

"The carbon monoxide content is much higher in hookah smokers than in cigarette smokers. A study comparing hookah smokers who smoked between 10-40 minutes and cigarette smokers and non smokers found that the concentration of carboxyhemoglobin (a degree of measuring carbon monoxide) in hookah smokers was 10.6% compared to cigarette smokers (6.5%) and non smokers (1.6%). The more carbon monoxide in the blood stream means less oxygen the various parts of your body will receive. This could very well correlate with the light headed feeling many hookah smokers claim to have after a session."

The only time I've gotten lightheaded was when I was building the tolerance toward the tobacco. For a while, when increased my smoking, I had gotten achyness/weakness in my legs and head pressure, but sure enough, that slowly started to go away and as far as I know you can't build a tolerance to CO like that. So what the hell man?
The problem with studies like this is that narghile smoking is such a complicated affair that a research model can't be comprehensive enough to give any real generalized info about the hobby. As I have pointed out a few dozen times CO exposure is a very complicated affair since what sort of coals are used matter a great deal as does the manner in which they started, the rate of draw on the hose, the packing method, the length of the narghile, hose length and how well the smoke is diffused. Most important of all is how one smokes and that is nearly possible to account for in the experiential design. When I say how one smokes I don't just mean the rate at which one draws on the hose but also the volume of smoke one inhales as well as whether or not one inhales at all. Beyond all of that what exactly one smokes in hos narghile has a lot to do with what exactly are exposing yourself to.

The upshot of all of this that studies like the one mentioned above say far less about the risks of smoking then then presume to show. I should also mention that most anti-tobacco research (yes the studies are biased do to funding methods, decades of propaganda and the fact that the researchers often don't even pretend to be objective) is that smoking machines are far more commonly used in studies that are actual smokers and smoking machines do not act the way the humans do. Those of you are interested in this sort of thing need to check out the links i've posted on the matter if you want to understand how the research is done.

Another matter I touched on before is that since the funding and political pressures to "produce the right results" are so intensive and media coverage of tobacco issues varies only in the intensity of the bias against smokers no real effort is made to critically analyze the studies issued. The Colby website ( http://www.lcolby.com/ ) points out that such an environment makes honest research impossible as he so amply demonstrates in his book.

Last edited by Hajo Flettner; December 18th, 2009 at 01:45 PM.
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