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Well it is handmade...

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  #26  
Old March 4th, 2010, 01:03 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

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Originally Posted by Scarcity View Post
It is just frustrating to me that poor quality can be so easily justified by "hand made quality". Before I got into hookahs (ie before I was 18) I associated the term handmade with something that was made with precision, and as clean as humanly possible; basically top notch stuff with endearing imperfections. Flaws are to be expected as people cannot create objects with the same ability as a machine.
Another occurrence in this thread seems to be that I am looking for machine made products when really I have always preferred handmade quality. I just feel like the people at KM are sloppy, meaning they don't seem to have a concern whether or not they've made a mistake.
Ferrari is hand crafted and that hand crafting expects a premium for quality. Ferrari's are perfection done at the hand of artists. By no means is KM a Ferrari but hand crafted in reference to KM means poor craftsmanship but "A good smoke". In essence, the hand crafted is complete BS because a machine could make the exact KM product and probably do it a lot better (maybe not cheaper however).

KM could take strides to improve but the only thing they are going to see is $$$ until we impact their bottom line, nothing will change. So until then, expect hand crafted to mean "looks like shit, smokes great".

Maybe I need to get into the Hookah business here. I could sell hookahs that look like recycled car parts but as long as it smokes great, people will pay $100+ for the product. I mean that is basically what some of you guys are saying, right?

Last edited by DRMALIKIA; March 4th, 2010 at 01:05 PM.
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  #27  
Old March 4th, 2010, 01:16 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

lol! nice
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  #28  
Old March 4th, 2010, 01:23 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

I have an AF pipe myself. I havent owned a KM yet. My af pip has one visual flaw and that is a very small line of solder on the heart of the hookah. Why its there, i have no idea. It just looks like the welder dropped it on it and didnt take it off and just left it there. Was i pissed about it? No i wasnt. I just delt with it. Was i surprised it was there for no reason. Hell yes I was. Does the pipe smoke well.. Yes it does. It smokes exceptionaly well and the pipe looks 99% perfect. I also paid a good amount less for the AF then i would have for the KM in the same size. The plating on the AF pipe is perfect as well, I clean it all the time and i have no problems with leaks or looks.

So if AF can make something that is 99% perfect, why cant KM?

Last edited by Hayter; March 4th, 2010 at 01:25 PM.
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  #29  
Old March 4th, 2010, 02:07 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

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Originally Posted by DRMALIKIA View Post
Ferrari is hand crafted and that hand crafting expects a premium for quality. Ferrari's are perfection done at the hand of artists. By no means is KM a Ferrari but hand crafted in reference to KM means poor craftsmanship but "A good smoke". In essence, the hand crafted is complete BS because a machine could make the exact KM product and probably do it a lot better (maybe not cheaper however).

KM could take strides to improve but the only thing they are going to see is $$$ until we impact their bottom line, nothing will change. So until then, expect hand crafted to mean "looks like shit, smokes great".

Maybe I need to get into the Hookah business here. I could sell hookahs that look like recycled car parts but as long as it smokes great, people will pay $100+ for the product. I mean that is basically what some of you guys are saying, right?
The problem, as I have said before, is money.

Think of the amount of pipes that KM makes. They take the time to make each one by hand. Now, if you want a more polished product, you're going to increase the amount of time it takes to produce a single pipe, likely doubling it. Finish and polish is the most time consuming part of metalworking.

So, they could produce pipes that look perfect, but you'd be looking at pipes that cost twice as much and a much smaller portion of them on the market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayter View Post

So if AF can make something that is 99% perfect, why cant KM?

Once again, it's a numbers game. I'm willing to bet that for every AF pipe on these boards there's at least ten KM's. If demand for AF pipes spikes the way that it has for KM's (Which wouldn't surprise me at all), I'd expect you'd see a similar trend in the quality.
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  #30  
Old March 4th, 2010, 02:31 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

I own both AF and KM pipes. I grossly overpaid for the both of them and they both have small imperfections, but they do smoke great. I can understand people that are saying that if it smokes great, it's no big deal. I will say, I was disappointed when finding these cosmetic flaws, but that's exactly what they are- Cosmetic. I will continue to buy KM and AF pipes until it comes to the point where they have lost their quality of smoke. Then I will switch to MZ or Temsah. Now, I'm not saying that these things are acceptable in a practical market, but another poster mentioned the influx of demand for KM pipes and that definitely is effecting the quality of KMs. KM knows that they can make money with more and more pipes, so they strive to churn out as many as possible.
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  #31  
Old March 4th, 2010, 02:43 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

Okay, now excuse me if you will, this thread is mostly a lot of totally unqualified claims about KM hookahs. Good and bad. My personal KM is near perfect. All of my friend's KMs are near perfect. Every KM I've ever looked at in my local shop is near perfect. Or, at least no flaws that stood out enough for me to notice. And, in the shop, they're right out in the middle of the floor so you see them up close. It's not like they're 8 feet away behind a counter or something.

I would venture to guess that most KMs on this board are near perfect.

Is it possible that a few people have problem pipes, while the rest of pipes that are near perfect, but, for lack of actual physical comparison, both chock them up to 'hand made'? One would be legitimate, while the other ought to be sent back.

The point is, this is all a bunch of speculation. If KM really were making poor quality pipes, that looked like trash and smoked it too, then they wouldn't be recommended almost constantly. But, instead, the vast majority probably has excellent quality pipes deliver an excellent smoke. Therefore, the vast majority recommends them. Then unfortunately, the rest of the people who end up with poor quality pipes are unintentionally duped into believing the poor quality is thanks solely to the hand-made nature of the thing.

Instead of vilifying KM, understand that because they're hand made, there will be varying degrees of quality. Assess whether that quality meets your standard, and if it does, appreciate its uniqueness and if it doesn't, exchange it. I'd bet the one you get back is better.
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  #32  
Old March 4th, 2010, 04:05 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpetruzzo View Post
Okay, now excuse me if you will, this thread is mostly a lot of totally unqualified claims about KM hookahs. Good and bad. My personal KM is near perfect. All of my friend's KMs are near perfect. Every KM I've ever looked at in my local shop is near perfect. Or, at least no flaws that stood out enough for me to notice. And, in the shop, they're right out in the middle of the floor so you see them up close. It's not like they're 8 feet away behind a counter or something.
I challenge this logic. It's cold outside right now so global warming can't be happening, right? In fact I am willing to bet it will only get colder!
What I mean by this is that if you got a messy pipe, and all the ones surrounding you did too, would you still think this way? I understand what you mean though, I'm willing to guess there is a pretty decent amount of good pipes out there by KM that have a clean finish. My first hookah was an MZ and it was fantastic, the welds were nice and there wasn't a lot of excess solder.
I think Coyotero is right when he says that the quantity of production has an effect on KMs. I think that early on they were most likely pristine creations that many started to highly recommend and in a way, that made the quality fall.
Again don't interpret what I say with hostility, I'm chilin' pretty hard to make up for chilin' time I'll be missing at work
Edit: Also agree with what Ignited is saying, I'm willing to bet that the workers are just trying to make money.

Last edited by Scarcity; March 4th, 2010 at 04:07 PM. Reason: MOAR
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  #33  
Old March 4th, 2010, 04:14 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarcity View Post
I challenge this logic. It's cold outside right now so global warming can't be happening, right? In fact I am willing to bet it will only get colder!
What I mean by this is that if you got a messy pipe, and all the ones surrounding you did too, would you still think this way? I understand what you mean though, I'm willing to guess there is a pretty decent amount of good pipes out there by KM that have a clean finish. My first hookah was an MZ and it was fantastic, the welds were nice and there wasn't a lot of excess solder.
I think Coyotero is right when he says that the quantity of production has an effect on KMs. I think that early on they were most likely pristine creations that many started to highly recommend and in a way, that made the quality fall.
Again don't interpret what I say with hostility, I'm chilin' pretty hard to make up for chilin' time I'll be missing at work
Edit: Also agree with what Ignited is saying, I'm willing to bet that the workers are just trying to make money.
No hostility read. Just a discussion.

I don't mean to imply that all KM's are great. I'm only challenging the notion that there are a really significant number of them that are of unacceptable quality. If I've been exposed to 75 KM's and all are an acceptable quality, that doesn't mean that all acceptable, but it's reasonable evidence to suggest that most are. That's kind of how our national polls are conducted.

And that's really all I'm saying. As a business owner, I know first hand that dissatisfied customers always talk the loudest. 100 satisfied customers are worth 1 dissatisfied one. And I'm suggesting that much of this thread could be an example of that principle.
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  #34  
Old March 4th, 2010, 04:23 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

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Originally Posted by bpetruzzo View Post
No hostility read. Just a discussion.

I don't mean to imply that all KM's are great. I'm only challenging the notion that there are a really significant number of them that are of unacceptable quality. If I've been exposed to 75 KM's and all are an acceptable quality, that doesn't mean that all acceptable, but it's reasonable evidence to suggest that most are. That's kind of how our national polls are conducted.

And that's really all I'm saying. As a business owner, I know first hand that dissatisfied customers always talk the loudest. 100 satisfied customers are worth 1 dissatisfied one. And I'm suggesting that much of this thread could be an example of that principle.
The hostility part was just because the first part of that post could of been regarded in a more snarky tone.*
I'm not dissatisfied with my pipe, and even if I was, I'm not that guy, I don't have a loud personality. This was mostly to convey my frustration with handmade quality being associated with poor quality, and I blame that on KM, as it seems to be the biggest quality.


Also, I think I over-use commas.
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  #35  
Old March 4th, 2010, 04:35 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

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Originally Posted by Coyotero View Post
The problem, as I have said before, is money.

Think of the amount of pipes that KM makes. They take the time to make each one by hand. Now, if you want a more polished product, you're going to increase the amount of time it takes to produce a single pipe, likely doubling it. Finish and polish is the most time consuming part of metalworking.

So, they could produce pipes that look perfect, but you'd be looking at pipes that cost twice as much and a much smaller portion of them on the market.
Yes money is the problem and they are sacrificing quality to get more money. I understand this is not produced in the United States, some poor bastard in a sweat shop, under the whip form his boss to get out 100 units a day, yada yada yada. Right now they are sacrificing product quality for mass production money. It is a world economy and world market so our dollar speaks just as loud as another countries. I personally would rather spend $200 dollars and have something that is high quality, well crafted, absolute minimal flaws. So they make fewer KM's, they are harder to get, but does that not make them more desirable? It would mean they do not sacrifice their principles, manufacturing, or skimp on their customers. Maybe think about it in this light, if they skimp on so many aspects of the stem, what else are they skimping on to save a buck and fatten their wallets? Lead based soldier? Toxic paint because it is cheaper? Makes you wonder.

Last I checked KM prices were not dropping because their quality was dropping. I run a business as I am sure a few of you do and with out quality service, product, widget or doodads, the customer will go buy from the other guy. Unless my next KM can be hand picked by the vendor and guaranteed not to have been used as someone's garden trowel, I will not be buying another one anytime soon. Even if it smokes great and makes sparks shoot out my ass, and gets my fiancee off from across the room! lol

Would that not be a great video, someone using their KM for choirs around the house? *SIGH* sorry.

Last edited by DRMALIKIA; March 4th, 2010 at 04:43 PM.
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  #36  
Old March 4th, 2010, 04:39 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

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Originally Posted by DRMALIKIA View Post
Yes money is the problem and they are sacrificing quality to get more money.
I'm still not convinced that there is actually a problem. Maybe we should start a poll of KM owners.
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  #37  
Old March 4th, 2010, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

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Originally Posted by bpetruzzo View Post
I'm still not convinced that there is actually a problem. Maybe we should start a poll of KM owners.
Voluntary response bias would, to me nullify the result. That is, those with the strongest opinions would only vote.
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  #38  
Old March 4th, 2010, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

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Originally Posted by DRMALIKIA View Post
Yes money is the problem and they are sacrificing quality to get more money. I understand this is not produced in the United States, some poor bastard in a sweat shop, under the whip form his boss to get out 100 units a day, yada yada yada. Right now they are sacrificing product quality for mass production money. It is a world economy and world market so our dollar speaks just as loud as another countries. I personally would rather spend $200 dollars and have something that is high quality, well crafted, absolute minimal flaws. So they make fewer KM's, they are harder to get, but does that not make them more desirable? It would mean they do not sacrifice their principles, manufacturing, or skimp on their customers. Maybe think about it in this light, if they skimp on so many aspects of the stem, what else are they skimping on to save a buck and fatten their wallets? Lead based soldier? Toxic paint because it is cheaper? Makes you wonder.

Last I checked KM prices were not dropping because their quality was dropping. I run a business as I am sure a few of you do and with out quality service, product, widget or doodads, the customer will go buy from the other guy. Unless my next KM can be hand picked by the vendor and guaranteed not to have been used as someone's garden trowel, I will not be buying another one anytime soon. Even if it smokes great and makes sparks shoot out my ass, and gets my fiancee off from across the room! lol

Would that not be a great video, someone using their KM for choirs around the house? *SIGH* sorry.
The problem is that prices would increase as cosmetic quality does. For them to produce the volume of pipes they do now with each of them being perfect, you'd be talking $400+ for a single pipe. In order to continue production without dramatically increasing their prices, corners have to be cut somewhere, like it or not.

And, for what it's worth, I agree wholeheartedly with bpetruzzo. Every KM I've seen or handled has been absolutely beautiful. The visual flaws are usually few and very, very minor.
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  #39  
Old March 4th, 2010, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

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Originally Posted by Scarcity View Post
Voluntary response bias would, to me nullify the result. That is, those with the strongest opinions would only vote.
Lets try it anyway!
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  #40  
Old March 4th, 2010, 05:39 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

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you'd be talking $400+
Try harder. That is a guess dude what figures do you have to back up that number? They do not have to make quality because people are buying their mass produced stuff right now. Hell, people are paying just as much now if not more for a lesser quality product then previously. Like I said before, if people keep buying them at this price and "settle" for the quality issues, they will keep making them that way until an equilibrium is reached between profit and customers going elsewhere. Here is a solution that can satisfy both worlds. They make one high end line where flaws and craftsmanship are important, and a low end line where it just smokes good? Satisfy both markets. That way I can spend $100,000 on my hookah and you can spend $100 on yours. lol

Obviously not everyone is having the same problem. If you look from my recent KM purchase, it was quiet beat up and others have mentioned the same issues. Missing plating, bad welds/soldiering, dents, general finishing issues, etc.



Last edited by DRMALIKIA; March 4th, 2010 at 06:07 PM.
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  #41  
Old March 4th, 2010, 06:02 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

Okay answer this then, Your poorly built km which smokes great for 6 months, what do you expect when u start washing it... It might die.. Then you have spent hundreds of dollars on a broken ass KM, Whats the point of vendors charging so much price for them then? cause they are hand made.

When i go to get a suite taylored from saville row, they dont charge 1000+ pounds for a suit that has stitches coming out, and sleeves not sowed on properly and the fitting to be off. Everything is perfect.

If km's are hand made then there should be a quality control. But then again this is egypt and as long as the american market continues to purchase their products at 400% profit margins then they don't care. There are factories in egypt. The machines make the tubings and the decorations are done by hand but most have a template that are created... so the real problem is that the staff that creat the patters and then add the designs by hand... they suck.


But what can i say, nothing would stop me from buying a km. I love mine. It smokes very good aswell. But god forbid one day the tip falls off or there is a leak I will be very pissed off cause i spent money. Regardless of price, I want my shisha to be worth the money i spend.

My original KM AMER, lasted me 2years and had no problems in build quality. I find the new kms do have some issues but i kind of expect it. The shishas are great
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  #42  
Old March 4th, 2010, 07:13 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRMALIKIA View Post
Try harder. That is a guess dude what figures do you have to back up that number? They do not have to make quality because people are buying their mass produced stuff right now. Hell, people are paying just as much now if not more for a lesser quality product then previously. Like I said before, if people keep buying them at this price and "settle" for the quality issues, they will keep making them that way until an equilibrium is reached between profit and customers going elsewhere. Here is a solution that can satisfy both worlds. They make one high end line where flaws and craftsmanship are important, and a low end line where it just smokes good? Satisfy both markets. That way I can spend $100,000 on my hookah and you can spend $100 on yours. lol

Obviously not everyone is having the same problem. If you look from my recent KM purchase, it was quiet beat up and others have mentioned the same issues. Missing plating, bad welds/soldiering, dents, general finishing issues, etc.


I must have a higher tolerance than you. Besides the dents, and maybe the weld toward the top, I'd say these imperfections are acceptable.
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  #43  
Old March 4th, 2010, 07:42 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

I love my new Km yeah flaws as well, but Smokes like a Beast.. If it was really bad though, then i would get the situation settled.
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  #44  
Old March 4th, 2010, 08:10 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

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Originally Posted by bpetruzzo View Post
.....Then unfortunately, the rest of the people who end up with poor quality pipes are unintentionally duped into believing the poor quality is thanks solely to the hand-made nature of the thing....
Definitely agree with you man, I think that because KMs smoke so good that buyers just let it go but if it were me I would be enquiring about it. But this is what I would do so Im not dissing others who dont.
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  #45  
Old March 4th, 2010, 08:28 PM
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Default Re: Well it is handmade...

My Af Syrian is pretty Immaculate, except the fading gold color - chalk that up to lots of use though.

I always say how low quality km's are, it just gets ignored and then people buy them, it's a never-ending cycle.

I think SB tobacco is total shit, and it is very low quality for what you pay for, yet everyone and their grandma buys it by the kilo.
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