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A finer draw + thicker smoke..

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  #26  
Old March 10th, 2010, 07:41 PM
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Default Re: A finer draw + thicker smoke..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackmaven View Post
damn we need a scientist. That's a good example but it doesn't account for the higher/faster draw stoking the coals and generating more smoke as result of a higher burn temp.
It does if you think of the hookah system as having maximum fixed variables that produce that magically dense white cloud of smoke. There is a maximum amount of smoke that you can generate based on heat and air volume before the volume of air washes out the density of smoke your tobacco can produce.

Same goes for the heat. The threshold of the coals generating heat before the shisha burns is your cut off point. All those variables go into the density of the smoke and the volume of air you need to pull in order to hit that magic sweet spot where everything lines up. Change any of the variables and the system adjusts based on the inputs, heat, air volume, wetness of the tobacco, etc.

You can take a fast hit or slow hit, it does not really matter to be honest. If your system cannot generate the smoke at a volume that keeps up with your draw, your just sucking air.

Last edited by DRMALIKIA; March 10th, 2010 at 07:49 PM. Reason: Brain Fart
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  #27  
Old March 10th, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Default Re: A finer draw + thicker smoke..

very interesting speculations...

however, as already pointed out, Boyle's law is certainly useless here. you'd have to use Bernoulli's equation for compressible flow, set up control volumes (or at least control surfaces, it's been too long) and work out velocities, pressures, and densities...

imho there's too many variables here, but the one that's been neglected is fluid speed. my assumptions from the above comments lead me to believe that:

A) you pull approximately the same overall volume of smoke through either large or small hoses
B) it takes you about the same time period to achieve 1 full pull

therefore, the fluid flowing through the smaller diameter hose must be flowing faster. not fast enough to even bother with speculation of laminar vs. turbulent flow affecting flavor, but certainly faster. added on top of that, if you're using a disposable tip, you can think of that like a nozzle, increasing velocity at exit.

maybe there's something there, maybe not...

anyway, what we obviously need is someone with way too much time on their hands to tap a hookah base for a pressure transducer, construct a hose with interchangeable diameter tubing and a pitot-static tube near the mouth piece and let the science-y fun begin
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  #28  
Old March 10th, 2010, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: A finer draw + thicker smoke..

Good point here! I agree, I think the smaller tip/hose makes you inhale longer, and thus pass more smoke over your tongue. I'm still new, but from my review learning from posts on here, I thought it looked like most people prefer the larger gauge hose for an easy draw? With this said, I've seen some of the "big guns" of the website using both types...
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  #29  
Old March 11th, 2010, 01:02 AM
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Default Re: A finer draw + thicker smoke..

apparently pv=net doesnt apply since it is an open system but the "thicker smoke" is because the gas is moving at a higher velocity and feels thicker over the tongue. so we were both wrong.
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  #30  
Old March 11th, 2010, 01:03 AM
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Default Re: A finer draw + thicker smoke..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRMALIKIA View Post
Yeah, I am going to go ahead and disagree with that. We are talking volumes and densities here and that logic is not sound. For example:

You have two glasses of juice. One is frozen (condensed) and one is normal shelf juice (water added). The flavor intensity in the condensed juice will be far superior to the water downed juice. Just because it has juice in it, does not mean they both are the same intensity. If I hold a mouth full of chopped jalapenos or one seed, I bet I am going to know the difference. Regardless of the time spent in your mouth, the larger quantity of jalapenos is going to fuck me up verse the single seed.

Where the taste comes from is your "NOSE" not your mouth. 70-75% of your taste is from your nose. That is why you "taste" the hit as you exhale and more so if you blow it out all valves and not just your mouth. So the more dense the smoke, the more your nose has to sample and the increase in sensation you experience.

Not badgering just disagreeing with your logic my friend.
Lol, I have to admit, the moment we move from speculation into actual scientific theories, I end up in way over my head. The diagram may as well have been an entirely different language!

But, continuing in my own speculation, if we're talking about flavor, we can't think that simply the speed that smoke is traveling increases the flavor. I mean, maybe, there are crazier things out there. But I still doubt it. But, if the speed that air is passing over the tobacco increases or decreases the flavor itself, then that would definitely make a difference.

Is that what is being suggested? I'd be lying if I said I understood much of the jargon from the last few posts.
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  #31  
Old March 11th, 2010, 01:38 AM
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Default Re: A finer draw + thicker smoke..

I will have to test this with my V3 narbish. Maybe play around with and without my crownhookah tip.
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  #32  
Old March 11th, 2010, 06:39 AM
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Default Re: A finer draw + thicker smoke..

There are a lot of variables in the hookah system but, the volume of air, speed of that air, heat, etc. all dictate the density of the smoke generated. The hose restriction whether wide, narrow or somewhere in between is only one variable in this process.

I would say prove my theory wrong but based on the limitations of a system (hookah) you will have a sweet spot for how much smoke you can generate creating the most dense cloud possible. The rate at which you pull that smoke off the tobacco, suck it through the tubing system and, eventually lungs, will dictate the density of that smoke.

Here I will get you started off in the right direction: http://chemistry.bd.psu.edu/aronne/Air%20S%2705.pdf

CFM calculator: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/sc...fm-d_1012.html

Last edited by DRMALIKIA; March 11th, 2010 at 06:52 AM.
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  #33  
Old March 11th, 2010, 01:36 PM
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Default Re: A finer draw + thicker smoke..

Quote:
Originally Posted by PBRpunx14 View Post
very interesting speculations...

however, as already pointed out, Boyle's law is certainly useless here. you'd have to use Bernoulli's equation for compressible flow, set up control volumes (or at least control surfaces, it's been too long) and work out velocities, pressures, and densities...

imho there's too many variables here, but the one that's been neglected is fluid speed. my assumptions from the above comments lead me to believe that:

A) you pull approximately the same overall volume of smoke through either large or small hoses
B) it takes you about the same time period to achieve 1 full pull

therefore, the fluid flowing through the smaller diameter hose must be flowing faster. not fast enough to even bother with speculation of laminar vs. turbulent flow affecting flavor, but certainly faster. added on top of that, if you're using a disposable tip, you can think of that like a nozzle, increasing velocity at exit.

maybe there's something there, maybe not...

anyway, what we obviously need is someone with way too much time on their hands to tap a hookah base for a pressure transducer, construct a hose with interchangeable diameter tubing and a pitot-static tube near the mouth piece and let the science-y fun begin
Haha I was reading through the first page of this and this was the first thing that came to mind that was missing.

I think the reason for the perception of more taste comes from the initial stream of smoke coming out of the hose tip is more concentrated due to the gauge of the tip.
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  #34  
Old March 11th, 2010, 02:10 PM
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Default Re: A finer draw + thicker smoke..

im gunna have to try this out and see if its any difference
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  #35  
Old March 11th, 2010, 02:16 PM
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Default Re: A finer draw + thicker smoke..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRMALIKIA View Post
It does if you think of the hookah system as having maximum fixed variables that produce that magically dense white cloud of smoke. There is a maximum amount of smoke that you can generate based on heat and air volume before the volume of air washes out the density of smoke your tobacco can produce.

Same goes for the heat. The threshold of the coals generating heat before the shisha burns is your cut off point. All those variables go into the density of the smoke and the volume of air you need to pull in order to hit that magic sweet spot where everything lines up. Change any of the variables and the system adjusts based on the inputs, heat, air volume, wetness of the tobacco, etc.

You can take a fast hit or slow hit, it does not really matter to be honest. If your system cannot generate the smoke at a volume that keeps up with your draw, your just sucking air.
Ok, I like Petru am out of my scientific depth, but I should point out that it seems as though you're treating air flow and heat as independant variables. The air flow provides increased oxygen to the coals allowing them to get hotter, my theory is that with a wide gauge you'd pull more air in a given amount of time, generate more heat and thus more smoke. All things constant (including the amount of force you pull with), in the same amount of time with a narrower hose you'd pull less air, generate less heat and less smoke.

Anyone got any scientist friends?
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  #36  
Old March 11th, 2010, 05:40 PM
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Default Re: A finer draw + thicker smoke..

I'm not sure about the science behind it but I prefer a wider gauge for an easy pull.

What I do know is that when I pull and leave some space open between my lips(very little space) and the hose tip I get a more defined taste from my smoke.
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  #37  
Old March 12th, 2010, 01:44 AM
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Default Re: A finer draw + thicker smoke..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRMALIKIA View Post
Where the taste comes from is your "NOSE" not your mouth. 70-75% of your taste is from your nose. That is why you "taste" the hit as you exhale and more so if you blow it out all valves and not just your mouth. So the more dense the smoke, the more your nose has to sample and the increase in sensation you experience.
This is true, the tongue involvement in taste is very limited. When smoking the only part of the flavor your tongue is perceiving is the sweetness or sourness of the flavor. Everything else is from smoke that goes up the pack of your throat and into your nasal passages. I'd suspect that with the narrower gauge of the hose, the flow rate is decreased (obviously). This means it takes longer for you to fill you lungs. This increase in fill rate means the smoke has more time to travel up into you nasal passages, allowing you to better "taste" the flavor of the tobacco.
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  #38  
Old March 14th, 2010, 11:45 PM
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Default Re: A finer draw + thicker smoke..

Classic!

This is what I was thinking but didnt know how to put it into words

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRMALIKIA View Post
Yeah, I am going to go ahead and disagree with that. We are talking volumes and densities here and that logic is not sound. For example:

You have two glasses of juice. One is frozen (condensed) and one is normal shelf juice (water added). The flavor intensity in the condensed juice will be far superior to the water downed juice. Just because it has juice in it, does not mean they both are the same intensity. If I hold a mouth full of chopped jalapenos or one seed, I bet I am going to know the difference. Regardless of the time spent in your mouth, the larger quantity of jalapenos is going to fuck me up verse the single seed.

Where the taste comes from is your "NOSE" not your mouth. 70-75% of your taste is from your nose. That is why you "taste" the hit as you exhale and more so if you blow it out all valves and not just your mouth. So the more dense the smoke, the more your nose has to sample and the increase in sensation you experience.

Not badgering just disagreeing with your logic my friend.
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  #39  
Old March 15th, 2010, 12:01 AM
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Default Re: A finer draw + thicker smoke..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackmaven View Post
Ok, I like Petru am out of my scientific depth, but I should point out that it seems as though you're treating air flow and heat as independant variables. The air flow provides increased oxygen to the coals allowing them to get hotter, my theory is that with a wide gauge you'd pull more air in a given amount of time, generate more heat and thus more smoke. All things constant (including the amount of force you pull with), in the same amount of time with a narrower hose you'd pull less air, generate less heat and less smoke.

Anyone got any scientist friends?
But realize smoke generation is a fixed system. You will only pull so much smoke based on heat, oxygen and airflow. The narrow versus broad hose is really irrelevant when you consider that a broad hose can draw and have just as much density of smoke when compared to it's narrow counter part. The premise here is that you are more likely to reach that threshold of smoke density (and not burning your shisha) on a system when that draw is reduced thus forcing you to pull a denser cloud when compared with a larger air volume.

You saw I contradicted myself there, if you can draw a massive cloud off a broader hose and maintain your density based on airflow you are in like Flin. My personal thought process as I have stated is that you will pull a more dense cloud if you are being forced to reduce the air flow going into your mouth. Sound like it is time for Mr. Wizard to make a video.
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