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Forum Announcement: Regarding Hookah John

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  #176  
Old April 2nd, 2010, 09:38 PM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattathayde View Post
i see the point but i have a bit of an issue with that a vendor saying their negative opinion is extremely bad but if it was from a member there would be no reprimand.

we want the vendors to be truthful with us and when they give what they feel is a truthful point (be is a bit over the top) we get pissed.

again sams house sams rules but since this thread was left opened and we have been allowed to discuss this that i what i am trying to do.

it seems at this point we have 2 sides, the people that are totally pissed and never want to talk to john again, and those of us that get that he violated rules but dont see what went down as this horrible transgression
-matt
Send a vendor a PM or email, ask about a product and ask for their honest opinion. There is no room for a vendor to publicly post something like that.
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  #177  
Old April 2nd, 2010, 09:40 PM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattathayde View Post
i see the point but i have a bit of an issue with that a vendor saying their negative opinion is extremely bad but if it was from a member there would be no reprimand.

we want the vendors to be truthful with us and when they give what they feel is a truthful point (be is a bit over the top) we get pissed.

again sams house sams rules but since this thread was left opened and we have been allowed to discuss this that i what i am trying to do.

it seems at this point we have 2 sides, the people that are totally pissed and never want to talk to john again, and those of us that get that he violated rules but dont see what went down as this horrible transgression
-matt

Matt you like to debate and that is obvious. Others are feeding into this and becoming irritated etc. There is no debate going to occur on this matter.
Its a simple policy that we are all aware of: Three strikes. John was already on his 2nd strike after numerous pardons etc. The Social Smoke issue is part of the 3rd strike but did not completely cause the 3rd strike. There were other issues as Sambooka addressed on the first page.
Its a done deal, whether some members like it or not, when you are participating on this forum, you are expected to abide by the rules. No exceptions. Even Moderators have rules and guidelines we must follow.
Rule are Rules plain and simple. We all know this from our parents, teachers and employers. Rules must be followed or expect consequenses.
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Hi, my name's John. You are in violation of the balance. Leave immediately or I will deport you.
  #178  
Old April 2nd, 2010, 09:40 PM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattathayde View Post
i see the point but i have a bit of an issue with that a vendor saying their negative opinion is extremely bad but if it was from a member there would be no reprimand.

we want the vendors to be truthful with us and when they give what they feel is a truthful point (be is a bit over the top) we get pissed.

again sams house sams rules but since this thread was left opened and we have been allowed to discuss this that i what i am trying to do.

it seems at this point we have 2 sides, the people that are totally pissed and never want to talk to john again, and those of us that get that he violated rules but dont see what went down as this horrible transgression
-matt
As someone who played role in the decision to ban john and the writing of the OP I can tell you I'm not pissed at John. I just feel he bent the rules to his benefit and we can't allow that. Period!
  #179  
Old April 2nd, 2010, 10:02 PM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

fine, the info was put out there for us to see "why", when members question the reasoning we are getting crap for questioning it. putting this out in the open the way it was bound to get a lot of questioning. if the objections did not want to be heard then this should have been done quietly
-matt
  #180  
Old April 2nd, 2010, 10:20 PM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattathayde View Post
fine, the info was put out there for us to see "why", when members question the reasoning we are getting crap for questioning it. putting this out in the open the way it was bound to get a lot of questioning. if the objections did not want to be heard then this should have been done quietly
-matt
We don't have issues w/your objections Matt. In fact we expected them from many members.We just wish you guys saw things as clearly as many of us. We just want things to run smoothly here for ALL vendors and more importantly, our members. John s' actions were makin that difficult. We understand the reflex to defend a solid vendor, we also understand that many of the oppossing opinions are being spoon fed. But rules are rules and this is a done deal. And as difficult it is right now, it's for the best regarding our forum. We've dealt w/this before.
  #181  
Old April 2nd, 2010, 10:28 PM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

i am seeing things as clearly but i feel differently than yall do. and i am far from being spoon fed
-matt
  #182  
Old April 2nd, 2010, 10:46 PM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattathayde View Post
i am seeing things as clearly but i feel differently than yall do. and i am far from being spoon fed
-matt
Fair enough. For the record, I wasn't implying you were being spoon fed. But we've had posts 'a plenty here from members that are clearly reporting back to an outside influence.
  #183  
Old April 2nd, 2010, 10:51 PM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

sad days... I'm sure both sides have their stories, but what's done is done. John is a great vendor but if he broke the rules that everyone at HP has to abide by then there was little choice in the matter. At least in no way did Sambooka or the other MODs say that this ban was permanent so that maybe a certain someone cleans up their mess and comes back someday.
  #184  
Old April 2nd, 2010, 10:51 PM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

Quote:
Originally Posted by abu ronin View Post
Fair enough. For the record, I wasn't implying you were being spoon fed. But we've had posts 'a plenty here from members that are clearly reporting back to an outside influence.
i was pretty sure you were not implying that but i wanted to make it clear it is my personally formed opinion
-matt
  #185  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 01:48 AM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

forums are politicized, just like anything else. if any of you know soccer history you can see this with the example of Florentino Perez's first presidency at Real Madrid and how his tactics did not agree with a great coach at the time, Vicente Del Bosque. Bosque was ousted, as well as a few players which sided with him. to me, this is no different. For whatever reasons the administration here did not get along with john, since Sam and the other admins are analogous to Perez they have the final say, therefore this community will lose a very significant figure which has been for the better benefit for the forum and its members (analogous here to the club - real madrid - and its supporters).

i think that if you read ANY post from a vendor it should be taken with a pretty sizable grain of salt. that should be presupposed. If you don't have the sense to think that vendors, or anyone else, will post here without the intent of pushing their own preferences as the best available practices (that is why they do the things they do, after all) then you need to evaluate why exactly you take everything 'from the horse's mouth.' because john posts one thing does not mean you have to, or even should, believe him - just like any other member - give what he says a shot (or not) and if it works for you then keep doing it, if it doesn't try something else and take another member's advice. the same thing applies to the admins here, sam as well, just because you (collectively) post something doesn't mean that i have to, or should, believe it.

if i am banned for believing that i should not take things for complete face value (from the horse's mouth) from EITHER side then that is a testament to the overpoliticization of this whole process.

I have been buying from John exclusively for the past few months - very sizable orders, mind you - and in every situation john has treated me extremely fairly and even gone out of his way to procure things for me that i request that he does not regularly stock. his incomparable customer service is by far the best from any vendor, his reviews are a testament to this.
  #186  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 02:02 AM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

Quote:
Originally Posted by antouwan View Post
forums are politicized, just like anything else. if any of you know soccer history you can see this with the example of Florentino Perez's first presidency at Real Madrid and how his tactics did not agree with a great coach at the time, Vicente Del Bosque. Bosque was ousted, as well as a few players which sided with him. to me, this is no different. For whatever reasons the administration here did not get along with john, since Sam and the other admins are analogous to Perez they have the final say, therefore this community will lose a very significant figure which has been for the better benefit for the forum and its members (analogous here to the club - real madrid - and its supporters).

i think that if you read ANY post from a vendor it should be taken with a pretty sizable grain of salt. that should be presupposed. If you don't have the sense to think that vendors, or anyone else, will post here without the intent of pushing their own preferences as the best available practices (that is why they do the things they do, after all) then you need to evaluate why exactly you take everything 'from the horse's mouth.' because john posts one thing does not mean you have to, or even should, believe him - just like any other member - give what he says a shot (or not) and if it works for you then keep doing it, if it doesn't try something else and take another member's advice. the same thing applies to the admins here, sam as well, just because you (collectively) post something doesn't mean that i have to, or should, believe it.

if i am banned for believing that i should not take things for complete face value (from the horse's mouth) from EITHER side then that is a testament to the overpoliticization of this whole process.

I have been buying from John exclusively for the past few months - very sizable orders, mind you - and in every situation john has treated me extremely fairly and even gone out of his way to procure things for me that i request that he does not regularly stock. his incomparable customer service is by far the best from any vendor, his reviews are a testament to this.

Youre in the danger zone! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1a_ikfUico
its a joke
  #187  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 02:04 AM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

Post both sides Mr. Bias.

Last edited by MechEng; April 3rd, 2010 at 10:32 PM.
  #188  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 02:15 AM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

Quote:
Originally Posted by antouwan View Post

if i am banned for believing that i should not take things for complete face value (from the horse's mouth) from EITHER side then that is a testament to the overpoliticization of this whole process.

You aren't going to be banned for not taking every thing someone (or everyone) says as truth/ fact. We expect the members to make their own informed decisions.

We know that John has awesome reviews and feedback from customers. This has nothing to do with his ban. He wasn't banned for treating his customers unfairly or poorly. He was banned because he couldn't follow the rules that he agreed to when he became a member and then a vendor/sponsoring vendor.
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Last edited by KoRnKitten; April 3rd, 2010 at 02:25 AM. Reason: Clarifying who I was talking to
  #189  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 05:00 AM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

quick question, is hookah freak and hookah-hookah shisha still ok to review since i'm getting some from urbanhookahs.com or is that a no-go? i'm still not real clear on whats ok to mention or review
thanks
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  #190  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 05:47 AM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

Those are okay to review smokey. It's just anything involving ********** and his alien phunnel, since that is on his site
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  #191  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 06:30 AM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

Smokey- + 1 to what raid said. Even at this time you can still mention the alien and the narbish and even ch coals. Just don't mention hj if you purchased the items from him. We're still discussing the framework for his products and how they are to be handled at this time.

Don't worry at all about mentioning other vendors products or other vendors as they are not involved this and are all in good standing with us. They shouldn't be punished over another vendors actions.
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  #192  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 07:40 AM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

I say again, this thread is to inform the public as to a ban. John broke the rules here, John was banned, the ban is not up for discussion. If you guys think you can do a better job of running a forum as succesfull and as large as this one, then by all means dip into your pockets and give it a shot. We have rules, we all are expected to abide by those rules, Period. If you have suggestions for rule revisions or new rules, please use the appropriate thread, Comments and Suggestions http://www.hookahpro.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=16

This is turning into a high school drama class. If you wanna stay here and abide by the rules then please do so. If you are here to stir up crap, please just leave. We are putting in a lot of hours and hard work to keep the forum a great place to hang out, lets keep it that way.
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  #193  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 12:28 PM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

There are important points that need to be focused on because after 8 pages, it seems like every time it is said, it is ignored, so lets try putting all the points down real quick.

1) This post was created so when John was banned you guys would know why. You guys would see this information and not believe everything laid out for you in the e-mail he sent out inviting you to forum he created that has a long post explaining everything the ban is not about.

2) This post was not created so members can bash Sambooka on his own site using his own money to host ridiculous accusations against him.

3) We know all vendors are people too, that being said, they throw away their right to be treated as a non-vendor the second they become a vendor. There is a good reason for this, we don't need the reviews of their product fluffed and competing vendors put down (which if you cared to notice was actually one of the violations listed).

4) The banning has nothing to do with John as a business owner and nothing to do with John as a person. It has all to do with John as a vending member of this site. You may call all the violations small, but if you consider they are all on a similar note, and that he was talked to about it each time, it all adds up. If I told my wife to leave me alone once, its nothing big, but if I say it all the time, there'd be a divorce pretty quick.

------------

Here's a little part I decided to write in case my bias gets called out. I have a temsah hookah entirely free from John on the basis to review. I say that in the video where I reviewed it and then proceed to give it a positive review. If I was lying at all about the product, tell me why so many members love their temsah rigs? Tell me why its the hookah I decided to bring with me to Iraq for a deployment. I have purchased an alien bowl, I have ch coals, I have made tons of purchases from John. My 3 most expensive most attractive rigs have all come from him. I admit to that, and admit to the fact that I still think he broke the rules clearly laid out several times. I also think there is a shot of redemption if the nonsense stops.

(Click here to see my temsah hookah in iraq next to a stack of CH coals to the left of the group)

------
I'd like to finish with posting the vendor rules here for you guys, which is clearly stickied in our vendor introduction forum they are added rules for everyone who has signed up to the forums. Now considering that basically all were violated, and several times at that, do you now consider an indefinite ban to be extreme? Other vendors have just gotten a straight permaban, theres no chance ever to return, however, this at least has a shot of redemption, and being the pestilent child does not really aid in that.

Quote:
The "Current" Policy On Vendors
Vendors will be allowed to:
Allowed to put a text link to their web site in their signatures (in a standard font). NOT BANNERS!
They must be a contributor to the "community" as far as advice / discussion goes.
... in other words, NOT be just posting free advertisements!

If a vendor achieves a total of 100+ votes, they will receive a specialized title of "Vendor" below there name.

We are also hosting a topic with "Discount Codes From Vendors", in the "Vendor Sales / Specials / Deals" section, so if you would like to setup a discount for Hookah Pro Members, let me know and I will add you to the post with your web site, coupon code and discount percentage.

We will also have a board for vendors to post their monthly specials, new products, etc. This will be called "Vendor Sales / Specials / Deals", this section will be available to all members. And in that board, vendors will be able to interact with members on what they offer for specials, new products, etc....This is the ONLY area to post your "Vendor Sales / Specials / Deals", and your area to interact with members of the forum should they want to inquire about your "Vendor Sales / Specials / Deals" (VIOLATED)

There is also a "Vendor Introduction" section. That is for vendors to introduce themselves. Please use this section. Vendors are provided with a multitude of sections to promote/sell/introduce themselves, by no means should vendors be doing that in any other section! Please utilize the areas of the forum that have been provided for you. If these rules are violated, there will be a 4 day ban.

Added - 10DEC07 (To clarify, so there is no questioning the rules that have already been stated above.)
Posts in the main section such as "Hit me up for the best prices" or "I have lower prices than so and so" will not be tolerated. Provide an educational post about the topic or question that remains unbiased towards your business, or don't post anything at all. (VIOLATED)

Added- 06/04/08 The only advertising you are allowed to do at Hookah Pro is posting in the Vendors Sales/ Specials/ Deals section, or the vendor banner. Do not use Private Messages, chat box or e mails or any other direct contact with our members. Also do not use our photo gallery to advertise. (VIOLATED)

Added 06/08/09 From the general rules section... Vendors, you are not allowed to review products you are selling. Or considering selling. If you have, the post will be deleted and a warning will be issued. Repeated self-reviews will result in a strike ban. (VIOLATED)
  #194  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 01:03 PM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

I'm a fan of the nerf gun in the background.
  #195  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 01:13 PM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

After reading all of this, it feels to me like a real life situation where 2 people you know have a falling out (i know this is bigger than that, but i think it works for the sake of argument). If you feel like whatever has split the 2 has little to do with you, by all means continue associating with both... SEPARATELY. If that means not even mentioning the one party when you're with the other (i completely agree with all who have said "his house his rules," and whoever brought up "benevolent dictatorships") then that's what you do. IRL, this is done out of respect, as it should be here. IRL also, if you do slip up and mention the other party, there's a good chance that someone will pull you aside and quietly remind you that "we're not talking about them," and i feel like it will be handled in a similar manner here. these are unwritten rules that keep relationships running smoothly. here, those rules are actually written down, which seems to make some people uncomfortable. we've become so accustomed to our glorious freedoms of speech that we feel that they extend anywhere and sometimes forget that by voluntarily submitting yourself into a sub-community with its own customs and rules, you are agreeing to abide by them (and if you don't like them, you are perfectly free to take your ball and go home).

I also understand (sort of) the not mentioning of banned vendors. i was looking at making my first online shisha purchase at another vendor, looked around and saw that they took coupon codes, searched for a code and ended up at this forum (so happy i found you guys ). after looking around here and seeing all the positive reviews of HJ and seeing that i would save money, i ended up purchasing from him and having a very positive experience. in an amusing side note, in the comments with my order, not knowing all this was going on, i told him that i discovered his site through HP, and my package arrived yesterday. one reason i frequent forums is for the personal experiences with products/services/vendors that people voluntarily post. i feel like, with a little patience and the understanding that not everything you read is fact, you can find more truth there than in advertising.

anyway, not that it was needed, but that's my $.02 on the whole situation. i'm interested on seeing how this plays out with his products, but ultimately don't see it effecting me personally. the one thing i am interested in that i don't see discussed yet is the "shopping cart" section. should i order from him again and post what i bought but not where i bought it from, won't the omission of vendor name be a pretty dead giveaway that its from him?
  #196  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 01:17 PM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

We're in the proccess of finalizing the framework for the mention of his products. As far as the shopping cart goes, our rules apply everywhere on the site. Banned vendors are not be mentioned.
  #197  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 02:12 PM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

i know you guys are finalizing mention of products. sorry, i honestly didn't intend to bring that back up as a topic, and i understand that you guys are getting really tired of repeating the same thing. all i was trying to say is that i found the problem itself intriguing and will be interested in seeing the solution. more along the lines of the theory behind the solution and how to best be diplomatic in exiling the offending vendor whilst not harming others who sell his products. i know it's a current and pressing problem for the community, but i'm most interested in seeing the end result and process through which it was achieved. that's all

as far as the shopping cart thing goes, i fully understand the rules: no means no. what i was saying, is there are only so many places to order hookah products from. almost every post in that section includes what you purchased and from where it was purchased. won't the omission of a vendor's name from the thread immediately let people know you purchased from a banned vendor, and as i don't even know of the others, probably HJ. to that end, what if someone asks you where you purchased that from? isn't saying "i can't say here" almost like referring to illegal substances as "other things..." it's not directly saying it, but...
  #198  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 04:07 PM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

I haven't posted in a while due to life and work (there's a hookahpro shoutout in Rock Band 3 which drops in december btw hint hint ) but I don't know what to think, really. HJ is my favourite vendor and HP was always my favourite forum.

I feel like mommy and daddy are getting a divorce and I don't know whose side to be on, despite them both loving me very much.
  #199  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 04:21 PM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

Quote:
Originally Posted by necco View Post
I haven't posted in a while due to life and work (there's a hookahpro shoutout in Rock Band 3 which drops in december btw hint hint ) but I don't know what to think, really. HJ is my favourite vendor and HP was always my favourite forum.

I feel like mommy and daddy are getting a divorce and I don't know whose side to be on, despite them both loving me very much.

Awww. We don't expect you guys to pick a side. We're not asking that of you. You can still purchase from him, and support him. We're not demanding that everyone take the same position as the mod staff here, everyone can develop their own opinions on the matter. We only wrote our response because the community wanted to know. Instead of just saying he's banned, that's final, we wanted you to see all the information and make your own informed decisions with the information you've been given from both parties involved. It just for now, we're taking a hiatus from our relationship with HJ. Maybe we can reconcile our differences in the future, as the possibility is there.

* Put's on reassuring mommy voice* Necco sweetie, We (I'm sure both) love you and we would never force you to choose between the two
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  #200  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 04:33 PM
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Default Re: Forum Announcement: Regarding **********

Wow i am really shocked by this.
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