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Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

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  #1  
Old October 25th, 2008, 03:34 PM
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Default Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

Many people have noted that smoking hookah is different from smoking cigarettes in that you don't burn the shisha - you simply "cook" it or "bake" it with the coals. That brings up two questions for me:

1) Where does all the smoke come from, if nothing is on fire?

2) Has anyone ever invented a coal-free way of smoking? Say, by using a bowl which could be heated, like an oven, to a certain constant temperature, and which would then evenly cook the shisha rather than burning it.

These might be stupid questions, but they've been bugging me.
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  #2  
Old October 25th, 2008, 03:38 PM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

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Originally Posted by Sparky112 View Post
Many people have noted that smoking hookah is different from smoking cigarettes in that you don't burn the shisha - you simply "cook" it or "bake" it with the coals. That brings up two questions for me:

1) Where does all the smoke come from, if nothing is on fire?

2) Has anyone ever invented a coal-free way of smoking? Say, by using a bowl which could be heated, like an oven, to a certain constant temperature, and which would then evenly cook the shisha rather than burning it.

These might be stupid questions, but they've been bugging me.
if someone makes such a bowl, I am buying for whatever price !
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  #3  
Old October 25th, 2008, 03:39 PM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

yes, electric hookah burner.

http://www.hookah-shisha.com/store/p...&idproduct=447

thats one...
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  #4  
Old October 25th, 2008, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

One of the advantages of coals is that they produce more heat when you need it, and burn cooler when you aren't puffing.

Like when you take a big hit, the coals will glow red with the airflow and heat up faster.

Edit: And that hookah burner is a coal lighter.
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  #5  
Old October 25th, 2008, 04:51 PM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

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Originally Posted by photolinger View Post
yes, electric hookah burner.

http://www.hookah-shisha.com/store/p...&idproduct=447

thats one...
That is actually just to light the coals. I think the idea was for an actual hookah bowl/head that is self heating and can "cook" the shisha in a clean way, my guess for maximum taste.

But as for the constant heat thing, that would be a challenge. As mentioned, coals get hotter when you inhale. A constant temperature on a bowl my end up just wasting shisha in the end by"cooking" it all to quickly.

I think hookah smoking will get more technological and savvy as the years progress. I think it would be a great idea for lounges, no more coal. Give it some time, someone is bound to invent something radical like this.

and than charge a ridiculous price for it.

-Andy
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  #6  
Old October 25th, 2008, 06:00 PM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

I am sure it hasn't been but I imagine it wouldn't be too tough to develop a sort of electric coal. That way the expense wouldn't be too awful much either. Like you could use your normal or favorite bowl but just put an electric battery powered or ac/dc plug in electric heater. Would do away with the need for a wind screen as well. I imagine a burner like the ones in a car cigarette lighter would work but how to make it smart like either able to get hotter or closer when you drag off it would be the tough part.
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  #7  
Old October 25th, 2008, 06:03 PM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

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Originally Posted by Vegasdrummer View Post
But as for the constant heat thing, that would be a challenge. As mentioned, coals get hotter when you inhale. A constant temperature on a bowl my end up just wasting shisha in the end by"cooking" it all to quickly.
Hmmm, good point - I hadn't thought of that.

Yeah, the reason I mentioned it was because I've heard that one of the problems with coals is that they produce carbon monoxide, which isn't an especially good thing to inhale (think car exhaust).

I agree that a bowl like the one I proposed would be a great product for hookah lounges to have. Well, maybe someone will invent it someday. Here's hoping!
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  #8  
Old October 25th, 2008, 07:48 PM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

the bowl heater idea has been tossed around and the hard part is getting it to heat up and cool off as you smoke like real coals

as to where the "smoke" comes from it really is steam from the glycerine, honey/molasses, and the tobacco. eclipse cigarettes steam the tobacco as well (they use a fiber glass coil to heat up the tobacco at a lower temp) and you can take a huge drag like hookah with them but there is little taste.

-matt
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  #9  
Old October 26th, 2008, 01:52 AM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky112 View Post
Many people have noted that smoking hookah is different from smoking cigarettes in that you don't burn the shisha - you simply "cook" it or "bake" it with the coals. That brings up two questions for me:

1) Where does all the smoke come from, if nothing is on fire?

2) Has anyone ever invented a coal-free way of smoking? Say, by using a bowl which could be heated, like an oven, to a certain constant temperature, and which would then evenly cook the shisha rather than burning it.

These might be stupid questions, but they've been bugging me.
1) The smoke is a product of the liquid content of the mixture being vaporized by the heat. Unless you are smoking tombac you don't want to literally have the tobacco combust so yes, you are in fact cooking the tobacco. In modern style moassels more smoke is produced from the use of glycerin (a simple vegetable derived sugar) while more traidtional mixtures produce less smoke then what you are likely used to
2) Yes. One is apparently made in Tiawan but I've never met anyone that has seen it so maybe it is just an idea awaiting venture capital. I have post stuff here about an electric narghile made in France by the people that make Tembo shisha. I have given it a try and it works pretty well but no better then a small, normal style rig. I have no idea how realible it is but it's a real hassle to use and expensive to opperate.

2)
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  #10  
Old October 26th, 2008, 08:24 AM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

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Originally Posted by Sparky112 View Post
Hmmm, good point - I hadn't thought of that.
Yeah, the reason I mentioned it was because I've heard that one of the problems with coals is that they produce carbon monoxide, which isn't an especially good thing to inhale (think car exhaust).
is this true folks ?
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  #11  
Old October 26th, 2008, 09:22 AM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

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Originally Posted by reality- View Post
is this true folks ?
they produce CO but its not huge amounts when it they get going. also if it was enough to hurt you, you would pass out every time you smoked hookah
-matt
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  #12  
Old October 26th, 2008, 09:48 AM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

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Originally Posted by reality- View Post
is this true folks ?
I've read this other places, but the scientific evidence comes from:

Sajid et al. 1993. "Carbon monoxide fractions in cigarette and hookah (hubble bubble) smoke." The Journal of the Pakistani Medical Association.43(9):179-182.

These researchers found that carbon monoxide levels were significantly higher when using what they referred to as "commercial charcoal" versus "domestic charcoal."

"Domestic charcoal" is described as being "prepared by burning soft wood (bark of tree, acacia)" whereas "commercial charcoal" was "prepared by burning hard wood (stem and branches of tree, generally acacia, under oxygen deficient earthen ovens)."

I'm really not sure how closely those descriptions match popular coals like Coconara or Three Kings, but it does demonstrate that the coals have an effect on the levels of carbon monoxide found in the smoke.

Last edited by Sparky112; October 26th, 2008 at 09:54 AM.
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  #13  
Old October 26th, 2008, 10:00 AM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

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Originally Posted by mattathayde View Post
they produce CO but its not huge amounts when it they get going. also if it was enough to hurt you, you would pass out every time you smoked hookah
Heh, just because something doesn't kill you instantaneously doesn't mean it's safe, especially long-term. I figure that any amount of a toxic substance is too much, if it can be avoided. But, unfortunately, it sounds like if a product to avoid making excessive amounts of carbon monoxide exists it is not readily accessible. Drat.
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  #14  
Old October 26th, 2008, 11:21 AM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

while CO isnt good for you i really dont think the levels lead to long term effects. smokers dont have less brain cells. nicotine on the other hand is one of the most toxic substances (extremely low LD 50) yet it is very short acting and by it self is not a really harmful thing.

also everything in moderation. everything is good in some amounts and bad in other

-matt
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  #15  
Old October 26th, 2008, 11:26 AM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

SheeCool produces a butane tobacco burner that I believe is intended to replace coals.
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  #16  
Old October 26th, 2008, 01:03 PM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

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Originally Posted by mattathayde View Post
while CO isnt good for you i really dont think the levels lead to long term effects. smokers dont have less brain cells. nicotine on the other hand is one of the most toxic substances (extremely low LD 50) yet it is very short acting and by it self is not a really harmful thing.
Since first time comparing with a HEBA nicotine diffuser I will never smoke without it.. So it feels like Im getting only very little to none nictoine while smoking now! Which is great since I do NOT smoke for buzzes as some others do.. Doesn't feel healthy if ur brain gets that relaxed often .. no no
I'd rather enjoy the relaxation of breathing deep In and Out, not from nicotine!
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  #17  
Old October 26th, 2008, 02:19 PM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

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Originally Posted by reality- View Post
is this true folks ?
Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky112
I'm really not sure how closely those descriptions match popular coals like Coconara or Three Kings, but it does demonstrate that the coals have an effect on the levels of carbon monoxide found in the smoke.
My company carries a charcoal fueled over of use in small cafes and our data indicates that 70% of the CO output of commercially available coals designed for use with food based applications is during the lighting process then during the actual consumption of the coal. My own experiments have found that coals designed for use with narghiles that don't contain accelerants have anywhere from a 1/3 to 2/3 less CO production then instant light or coals for food use.

As to health effects I'll point out once again that cardio-vascular problems and cancers typically attributed to tobacco consumption have far lower rates of occurrence both among narghile smokers and outside of the Western world among smokers in general. Those of you interested in that sort of thing should read the Colby articles on the subject I posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky112
Heh, just because something doesn't kill you instantaneously doesn't mean it's safe, especially long-term. I figure that any amount of a toxic substance is too much, if it can be avoided. But, unfortunately, it sounds like if a product to avoid making excessive amounts of carbon monoxide exists it is not readily accessible. Drat.
The smoker's exposure to CO is principally a matter of how you smoke. If you want to reduce your exposure to CO you should use natural rather then QLs and spend an extra several minutes to make sure they are fully lighted before use. Most important of all you should give up inhaling and treat moassel as if it were a cigar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattathayde
while CO isnt good for you I really donít think the levels lead to long term effects. smokers donít have less brain cells. nicotine on the other hand is one of the most toxic substances (extremely low LD 50) yet it is very short acting and by it self is not a really harmful thing.

also everything in moderation. everything is good in some amounts and bad in other
With regards to CO I simply don't think it is a big deal for the simple reason that no one claims that narghile users suffer from symptoms commonly associated with long term CO poisoning.

Your comments about nicotine are way off. In part the LD 50 test is empirically stupid but also at odds with common sense and the reality of what nicotine is and how it works. If you are interested in the actual toxicolological aspects of that substance take a look at the articles I have cited here that deal with the subject.
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  #18  
Old October 26th, 2008, 03:12 PM
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Thumbs up Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

Just wanted to confirm/agree with matt and haja's response to the 'smoke'. Even though 'smoke' is produced; this is nothing compared to the 600+ extra carcinogens that are produced when cigarettes/tobac ignite and combustion occurs; thus a chemical reacion.
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Old October 26th, 2008, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

When smoking shisha you dont bake or cook it, you steam it.
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  #20  
Old October 26th, 2008, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

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Originally Posted by Hajo Flettner View Post
Yes


My company carries a charcoal fueled over of use in small cafes and our data indicates that 70% of the CO output of commercially available coals designed for use with food based applications is during the lighting process then during the actual consumption of the coal. My own experiments have found that coals designed for use with narghiles that don't contain accelerants have anywhere from a 1/3 to 2/3 less CO production then instant light or coals for food use.

As to health effects I'll point out once again that cardio-vascular problems and cancers typically attributed to tobacco consumption have far lower rates of occurrence both among narghile smokers and outside of the Western world among smokers in general. Those of you interested in that sort of thing should read the Colby articles on the subject I posted.



The smoker's exposure to CO is principally a matter of how you smoke. If you want to reduce your exposure to CO you should use natural rather then QLs and spend an extra several minutes to make sure they are fully lighted before use. Most important of all you should give up inhaling and treat moassel as if it were a cigar.


With regards to CO I simply don't think it is a big deal for the simple reason that no one claims that narghile users suffer from symptoms commonly associated with long term CO poisoning.

Your comments about nicotine are way off. In part the LD 50 test is empirically stupid but also at odds with common sense and the reality of what nicotine is and how it works. If you are interested in the actual toxicolological aspects of that substance take a look at the articles I have cited here that deal with the subject.
im pretty sure it was those articles you posted that i did look through and started looking at the nicotine stuff. while i agree that LD 50 isnt a very exact thing it is still a good starting point (given only 1/3 the population smokes, and i would bet that under 1/2 of the population uses tobacco of what ever form so there probably is a large jump in the LD between users and non users)

on the basic level of how much you have to take in to kill you nicotine is very potent

-matt
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  #21  
Old October 26th, 2008, 08:02 PM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

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Originally Posted by Huskysibe View Post
When smoking shisha you dont bake or cook it, you steam it.
Quite true. Your more precise terminology is spot on.
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  #22  
Old October 26th, 2008, 08:09 PM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

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Originally Posted by mattathayde View Post
im pretty sure it was those articles you posted that i did look through and started looking at the nicotine stuff. while i agree that LD 50 isnt a very exact thing it is still a good starting point (given only 1/3 the population smokes, and i would bet that under 1/2 of the population uses tobacco of what ever form so there probably is a large jump in the LD between users and non users)

on the basic level of how much you have to take in to kill you nicotine is very potent

-matt
When one talks about toxicology the state of the substance and the means of ingestion are critical. somewhere else the matter of thujone came up and one simply will never come upon enough pure thujone to cause health troubles. You'd literally have to a pound of sage in a sitting to hurt yourself. The same is true of nicotine in that you never simply injest pure nicotine and the effects of nicotine toxicity simply don't occure in places where tobacco is consumed as food. In the end it simply makes no sense to talk about the sonsumption of pure nicotine and LD 50 tests because that is not how it's consumed.
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Old October 26th, 2008, 09:02 PM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

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Originally Posted by Hajo Flettner View Post
When one talks about toxicology the state of the substance and the means of ingestion are critical. somewhere else the matter of thujone came up and one simply will never come upon enough pure thujone to cause health troubles. You'd literally have to a pound of sage in a sitting to hurt yourself. The same is true of nicotine in that you never simply injest pure nicotine and the effects of nicotine toxicity simply don't occure in places where tobacco is consumed as food. In the end it simply makes no sense to talk about the sonsumption of pure nicotine and LD 50 tests because that is not how it's consumed.
true but then the question arises of how much is really absorbed in the different ways (since things like dip and chew allow the nicotine to go in to the blood faster and i would assume all of the ways normally used to "consume" tobacco/nicotine allow it to enter the blood faster

im not arguing the fact that its hard/next to impossible to consume enough to cause a lethal dose but in the mg/kg relationship to be lethal it is very low comparatively

-matt
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  #24  
Old October 28th, 2008, 10:21 AM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

it wouldnt be that hard put a heating coil in the ceramic, plug it into the wall, get it to go red hot, but it would burn up the shisha pretty fast though
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  #25  
Old October 28th, 2008, 10:42 AM
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Default Re: Cooking/baking shisha vs. burning

It might be an overly complex monster but say you put something like a cars lighter coil in an electric head that snapped onto the top of the bowl like a small wind cover. Two cords would run from it one to that fits over the hose end to replace the grommet the other to the ac adapter. The cord that hooks to the hose would contain a sensor that would read when you suck on the cord. That would tell the device to bring the heater closer to the foil or even touch it. With proper circuitry and what not you may not even need foil because the heater would be moved to certain points and would be a more even heat all the way around. Or a simplified version would just have a thermostat or a sensor that goes on the head grommet. It wouldn't be difficult, it would probably burn cleaner and more even but it wouldn't be the same experience. Probably would be a market for it though.
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