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Adding legal herbs to shisha?

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  #26  
Old December 31st, 2008, 06:58 PM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

A lot of the old fashioned stuff Syrian/Iranian/Turkish stuff I mailed out to various HPers has numerous herbs added to the tobacco but they are all perfectly safe as food additives. The sort of stuff advertised in the links at the first site are "legal buzz" type stuff and the sort of thing I think needs to be banned from this forum. Since herbs can be exceedingly dangerous even when legal and since dosage rates are little understood or unknown when smoked for so many things I am basically saying it's better to be safe then sorry and don't smoke something just because someone or some website said that it was custom somewhere centuries ago.

I am extremely worried about where this thread may go so basically this is the sort of thing that I feel best overlooked.
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  #27  
Old December 31st, 2008, 07:24 PM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

I agree. I think discussions of alternatives to illegals and trying to get a "legal high" should be treated as anything else along those lines. It's not a type of activity we need association with.
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  #28  
Old January 1st, 2009, 12:52 AM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

Ever read the Forum Rules forum?

http://www.hookahpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50

"There are several herbs and other substances out there that will give you a legal high. This is not the Place. Hookah and Hookah only: Shisha,Hookahs,Hoses,Bowls,Hookah Parties, Etc... Thats it."
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  #29  
Old January 1st, 2009, 03:20 AM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

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Originally Posted by Wharbone View Post
Ever read the Forum Rules forum?

http://www.hookahpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50

"There are several herbs and other substances out there that will give you a legal high. This is not the Place. Hookah and Hookah only: Shisha,Hookahs,Hoses,Bowls,Hookah Parties, Etc... Thats it."

I am actually surprised that this thread hasnt been locked or deleted by now.
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  #30  
Old January 1st, 2009, 03:58 AM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

I've smoked Wild Dagga mixed with mint shisha and it wasn't too bad. Plain shisha is better though, not as harsh...
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  #31  
Old January 1st, 2009, 07:50 AM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

We have allowed a little freedom with this thread since it hasent gotten out of hand. We are talking about it again though so dont be surprised if it disappears in the near future.
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  #32  
Old January 1st, 2009, 10:04 AM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

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Originally Posted by Hajo Flettner View Post
Since herbs can be exceedingly dangerous even when legal and since dosage rates are little understood or unknown when smoked...
Tobacco is pretty dangerous as well. I can't even list all the possible outcomes of smoking tobacco off the top of my head. I understand what you mean Hajo but maybe this thread being here will prevent future questioning.
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  #33  
Old January 1st, 2009, 02:06 PM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

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Originally Posted by mattathayde View Post
^^ correct with all the history and the native american definition by exacts but the group of people refer to them selves that way and/or as indians, and pretty much if you say native american you will have some one thinking of an indian.

for the most part the thing i linked to would be used by plains tribes like lakota, crow, navajo, etc

from what i am told though from a friend that has used red willow bark it is supposed to also be able to work like aspirin by smoking it, he said when he has had head aches he smoked it and it worked to relieve them but also some times basically made him really sleepy

-matt
I would suggest that to carry on using a nonsensical, PC term like native American simply because that particular abuse of the English language has taken hold is something that should not be done because it is wrong to do so.

I do not know anything about willow bark and I would venture to say that absolutely no research exists on the matter making an informed decision on it's use impossible.
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  #34  
Old January 1st, 2009, 02:18 PM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

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Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
Tobacco is pretty dangerous as well. I can't even list all the possible outcomes of smoking tobacco off the top of my head. I understand what you mean Hajo but maybe this thread being here will prevent future questioning.
Tobacco has risk factors that are at least somewhat understood (ex. a 4-8 fold increase in the likelihood of getting lung cancer after 30 years of daily use) which means that an intelligent person can evaluate the risks of use. Since a great deal of herbs have absolutely no research about dose/response curves an informed decision can't be made.

What worries me is that a great deal of perfectly legal herbs that have historically been smoked or added to ales can in fact kill you unless expertly employed. When I say kill you I don't mean in 30 + years of daily use you may get cancer I mean death the same day as the first use. I will not mention such substances publicly for obvious reasons but the truth is that much of what is out there simply is not suitable for smoking or is an unknown danger and we should not risk the reputation of the hobby by treating this matter lightly.

Lastly I will point out that I personally know of two different people that died from smoking things they bought legally without the intention of replicating something illegal. Bottom line to me is that this is a topic that needs to treated with extreme care.
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  #35  
Old January 1st, 2009, 02:30 PM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hajo Flettner View Post
I would suggest that to carry on using a nonsensical, PC term like native American simply because that particular abuse of the English language has taken hold is something that should not be done because it is wrong to do so.

I do not know anything about willow bark and I would venture to say that absolutely no research exists on the matter making an informed decision on it's use impossible.
"native american" is not a "pc term" its what is used in general, about as equally as "american indian". it is used as a general term to cover all the individual nations be cause at this point most of the nations are friendly with each other, at least enough that they can interact with each other and not have issues. powwows are almost always open to all nations with the only real restriction being if they are card carrying natives (being that the US government has recognized that person as having enough of a nation's heritage in their history to be considered that nation to the government, which grants them some extra rights than only a citizen of the US)

red willow bark ha been used for hundreds of years, ive never seen any warnings with it at all and i know a lot of people that have used it and not had issues and not said there is anything you have to be careful with it.

-matt
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  #36  
Old January 1st, 2009, 03:31 PM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

I think my biggest concern with these legal highs is people just don't know what they are putting in their body. They don't know what kind of effects it will have on them. I would imagine that a very little percentage of the people trying these herbs have actually studied them and know what they are going to do to them.


Be safe!

Last edited by Dunkel; January 1st, 2009 at 04:01 PM.
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  #37  
Old January 1st, 2009, 04:15 PM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

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Originally Posted by mattathayde View Post
"native american" is not a "pc term" its what is used in general, about as equally as "american indian". it is used as a general term to cover all the individual nations be cause at this point most of the nations are friendly with each other, at least enough that they can interact with each other and not have issues. powwows are almost always open to all nations with the only real restriction being if they are card carrying natives (being that the US government has recognized that person as having enough of a nation's heritage in their history to be considered that nation to the government, which grants them some extra rights than only a citizen of the US)

red willow bark ha been used for hundreds of years, ive never seen any warnings with it at all and i know a lot of people that have used it and not had issues and not said there is anything you have to be careful with it.

-matt
Being an Amerindian does not make one more "natively" American then anyone else born in the U.S.A. of parents that are citizens of that country. Like the term "first nations" "native American" is a political term designed to enhance a PC agenda. The fact that such nonsensical terms have been pushed for decades as a form of cultural warfare to the extent they are now commonly accepted by people unaware of the implications of such terms does not make it a correct one.

As for red willow bark I admit that don't know anything about it in pharacological terms but then again neither does anyone else. The reality is that since no empherical data exists about it's effects neither you nor I can make an informed descision about it's use.

The fact that you haven't heard anything negative is not the same thing as having an informed opinion about the safety of it's use. As to history I could easily list dozens of exceedingly dangerous legal herbs that have a very long history of use so the assumption that some paleolithic peoples used any substance for any lenght of time doesn't mean it's safe.

If red willow bark is safe to smoke (and it very well may be) then i'd be delighted to see any info to that effect. Until such info becomes available I would be very warry of recomending it to anyone.
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  #38  
Old January 1st, 2009, 04:15 PM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wharbone View Post
I think my biggest concern with these legal highs is people just don't know what they are putting in their body. They don't know what kind of effects it will have on them. I would imagine that a very little percentage of the people trying these herbs have actually studied them and know what they are going to do to them.


Be safe!
i think the same thing can be said about just about anything the average person takes in, legal or otherwise. How many people here REALLY looked into the effects of tobacco before smoking hookah?
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  #39  
Old January 1st, 2009, 04:52 PM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hajo Flettner View Post
Being an Amerindian does not make one more "natively" American then anyone else born in the U.S.A. of parents that are citizens of that country. Like the term "first nations" "native American" is a political term designed to enhance a PC agenda. The fact that such nonsensical terms have been pushed for decades as a form of cultural warfare to the extent they are now commonly accepted by people unaware of the implications of such terms does not make it a correct one.
i really do not understand what you are trying to get across with this, "native american" has not been used as a PC term that is being pushed by any agenda, all natives i know (and i know a lot seeing as ive been part of the culture for the last 7 years, im native by heart, not by blood) ive always heard that term used to just group all the nations that were pre settlement by all natives, american indian and native american are interchangeable out west on the reservations and in the general vernacular. the term "first nations" is some bull PC crap, most natives dont use that term.

yes any one that is born in america is a "native american" but the term in not used that way, there are plenty other similar uses of words that are not used for their direct literal meaning but they are still used

something to remember is that the native americans that smoked their blends of herbs usually did not inhale but smoked the same as a modern pipe or cigar. and on some research i found out that the aspirin properties of red willow bark are only gained by ingesting them orally so smoking doesnt help with that.

-matt
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  #40  
Old January 1st, 2009, 06:38 PM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

The term native American is used to denote the notion that the Amerindians are somehow more "native" then others. They use the term a long with PC Whites to advance an agenda of victimhood and cultural warfare. If you haven't noted as much you need to pay more attention to what a term actually implies, why it's used and why would someone use rather then identify one's self in a way that actually has some ethnographic meaning.

The fact that other words are used improperly to advance an an ethnic/political agenda doesn't make it any more legitimate.

As to what the various Amerindian tribes smoked other then tobacco i'd say the matter is exceedingly obscure for the simple reason that written evidence is non-existent prior to European colonization and very scarce since that time. The archelogical record is sporatic at best meaning that we simply don't know what smoking mixtures were popular with which tribes to what extent prior colonization. We do know that some of the mixtures in question were highly dangerious and often they were psycotropic.
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  #41  
Old January 1st, 2009, 06:47 PM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hajo Flettner View Post
The term native American is used to denote the notion that the Amerindians are somehow more "native" then others. They use the term a long with PC Whites to advance an agenda of victimhood and cultural warfare. If you haven't noted as much you need to pay more attention to what a term actually implies, why it's used and why would someone use rather then identify one's self in a way that actually has some ethnographic meaning.

The fact that other words are used improperly to advance an an ethnic/political agenda doesn't make it any more legitimate.

As to what the various Amerindian tribes smoked other then tobacco i'd say the matter is exceedingly obscure for the simple reason that written evidence is non-existent prior to European colonization and very scarce since that time. The archelogical record is sporatic at best meaning that we simply don't know what smoking mixtures were popular with which tribes to what extent prior colonization. We do know that some of the mixtures in question were highly dangerious and often they were psycotropic.
honestly you seem to have seen only natives that are super pro AIM extremists to be making those statements.

as to not knowing what was smoked then, all tribes had a very good oral tradition passing on things and place to place things are pretty consistent so i really doubt much has been lost as to what was and was not smoked
-matt
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  #42  
Old January 1st, 2009, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hajo Flettner View Post
The term native American is used to denote the notion that the Amerindians are somehow more "native" then others. They use the term a long with PC Whites to advance an agenda of victimhood and cultural warfare. If you haven't noted as much you need to pay more attention to what a term actually implies, why it's used and why would someone use rather then identify one's self in a way that actually has some ethnographic meaning.

The fact that other words are used improperly to advance an an ethnic/political agenda doesn't make it any more legitimate.

As to what the various Amerindian tribes smoked other then tobacco i'd say the matter is exceedingly obscure for the simple reason that written evidence is non-existent prior to European colonization and very scarce since that time. The archelogical record is sporatic at best meaning that we simply don't know what smoking mixtures were popular with which tribes to what extent prior colonization. We do know that some of the mixtures in question were highly dangerious and often they were psycotropic.
Hajo, read what I said earlier. It's just easier. I define myself by my personality and my actions not by the name of a group. If someone asks me I can elaborate but I do not find it necessary to educate them as some may call it. I do not let "indian" or "american indian" pass so easily, but Native American is accurate enough and non-offensive enough for me to accept. Frankly amerindian is pretty bad.

There are varying opinions in all groups about how they should be called and what is considered acceptable but it comes down to the individual to determine what they are ok with and what is a problem. No other person can dictate what is right for the individual.

But beyond all of that, this is not a discussion nor a subject that can be settled here and the best option is to just disagree and leave it up to those in question to decide if a fight is necessary.
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  #43  
Old January 1st, 2009, 08:52 PM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

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Originally Posted by kalutika View Post
Hajo, read what I said earlier. It's just easier. I define myself by my personality and my actions not by the name of a group. If someone asks me I can elaborate but I do not find it necessary to educate them as some may call it. I do not let "indian" or "american indian" pass so easily, but Native American is accurate enough and non-offensive enough for me to accept. Frankly amerindian is pretty bad.

There are varying opinions in all groups about how they should be called and what is considered acceptable but it comes down to the individual to determine what they are ok with and what is a problem. No other person can dictate what is right for the individual.

But beyond all of that, this is not a discussion nor a subject that can be settled here and the best option is to just disagree and leave it up to those in question to decide if a fight is necessary.
hmmm ya that is interesting, most natives i talk to dont really mind indian/ american indian when being refereed to, or even referring to them selves

-matt
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  #44  
Old January 1st, 2009, 09:10 PM
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Anything ever turn up with this stuff?

http://www.hookahpro.com/forum/showt...ghlight=salvia

Dont take it man,worst experience ever.
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  #45  
Old January 1st, 2009, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mattathayde View Post
hmmm ya that is interesting, most natives i talk to dont really mind indian/ american indian when being refereed to, or even referring to them selves

-matt
like I said it all come down to the individual.
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  #46  
Old January 1st, 2009, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by KillerB View Post
i think the same thing can be said about just about anything the average person takes in, legal or otherwise. How many people here REALLY looked into the effects of tobacco before smoking hookah?
EXACTLY!!! My point is know what you're putting in your body before you take it (tobacco included). Be well educated on any substance that will alter the way you feel before ever using it.
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  #47  
Old May 20th, 2009, 05:06 PM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

This thread is very interesting but I find the Native American talk more so over the legal herbs.

I am half Lummi and half White Swan but registered as only Lummi. And I agree with kalutika by saying it all depends on the person. I refer to myself as Native, NDN, N8V.

Im suprised to see how much people know about this subject and get offended. Im not but find it interesting =)
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  #48  
Old May 20th, 2009, 05:19 PM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

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Originally Posted by LoQuik View Post
This thread is very interesting but I find the Native American talk more so over the legal herbs.

I am half Lummi and half White Swan but registered as only Lummi. And I agree with kalutika by saying it all depends on the person. I refer to myself as Native, NDN, N8V.

Im suprised to see how much people know about this subject and get offended. Im not but find it interesting =)
exercise your rights as a native my friend, i wish i had native blood since i am native by heart but dont have a drop of blood so im pretty much screwed in a lot of ways since i am into dancing, do no protected feathers for me.

i really love seeing the native uses of a all the plants here, be it for smudging, smoking, medicinal , etc

one of my friends who is half native is talking about getting a nice native pipe so i am getting interested in the native blends again
-matt
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  #49  
Old May 20th, 2009, 10:40 PM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

Many of the elders smoke but it is dying out in my tribe, my family mainly uses plants for smudging.
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  #50  
Old May 20th, 2009, 10:41 PM
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Default Re: Adding legal herbs to shisha?

gonna admit i tried something tonight that was herbal and legal and not meant for hookah, and i mixed it with some mizo guava...and it was...interesting, tasted like zatar
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