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Reviews are Almost Worthless...

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  #1  
Old March 20th, 2010, 11:11 AM
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Default Reviews are Almost Worthless...

And this is why: They are COMPLETELY and UTTERLY subjective. I have noticed this most recently, and most profoundly, with the Social Smoke tobacco.

I'm a strong supporter of reviews. Reviews I don't take seriously are those that say "I don't really like it because I'm not a fan of (insert flavor), and the buzz is too weak/too strong". Those personal dislikes should have no correlation with the score a product is given by a reviewer. This aspect, though. isn't even the reason I am posting.

The subjectivity is much deeper than that. It's really about the palate. Take Simply Apple for example; I clean my pipe and hose and bowl every time I smoke a new flavor. I make sure that the only flavor I am tasting is that flavor - I also have dedicated hoses. Simply Apple has given me the greatest Red Apple experience I have ever tasted in a tobacco, and I feel that if anyone likes Apples they should smoke it ASAP. Yet it seems to get much different reviews and feedback compared to what I found. It can be floral, chemical, and weak - three factors I consider terrible in a fruit flavored tobacco. Our palates are so different, they pick up completely different flavor classes compared to another person. I went into Simply Apple thinking it would be very floral - not only was it not at all floral, it was perfectly natural, tangy, crisp and strong. All of the people smoking said the same thing, and they all want to smoke it constantly.

So these reviews I have been reading would have pushed me away from SS tobacco for the most part, but I decided not to take them seriously and have now found my favorite tobacco, by far.
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  #2  
Old March 20th, 2010, 11:31 AM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

I can understand where you are coming from Zen but then again any review is subjective. Simply look at a review aggregating site like rottentomatoes.com or similar. The idea is that we are all subjective and only as a collective can we average out to be non-subjective. Even in the old Siskel and Ebert days, you kinda picked one or the other to follow.

Perhaps reviews are about finding people who's tastes you agree with and then following their suggestions since their tastes are in alignment with yours?
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  #3  
Old March 20th, 2010, 11:41 AM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

I have tried to do that but then they come up with something I am disgusted with

Take for example your Silk Butterfly. Everyone has said that's it's amazing and they love it, etc. Yet when you got it was not even close to what you were expecting, based on reviews!
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  #4  
Old March 20th, 2010, 11:46 AM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

people need to approach reviews w/a grain of salt. Assuming everyones tastes are the same is naive to say the least and I would hope folks know that. However, a well done review in which the reviewer gives a solid description and an unbiassed opinion can be helpful when trying to get an idea about a flavor or product in general.
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  #5  
Old March 20th, 2010, 11:53 AM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

Well when i watch reviews zen i personally do want those personal opinions in the review. I feel it makes it easier as long as they describe it well. The numbers 10/10 or whatever don't mean anything to me but when people say I love floral flavors and this has a strong floral flavor so i'm loving it, I know thats something i PROBABLY won't like because I am not a fan of floral flavors. As long as they describe it well what they like or don't like and what they like and don't like in the tobacco then I can compare it to my personal tastes and get more or less what I need out of the review. CaptHowdy IMO has some of the best reviews because he'll tell you what he likes then what flavors he is picking up in the tobacco, and then he'll tell you his opinion.
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  #6  
Old March 20th, 2010, 02:37 PM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

I've quit reading most reviews. Howdy has some good ones and there are a few other people's opinion I value but most don't tell me anything. I often feel folks are cranking them out to boost their post numbers and qualify for a contest or something like that.
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  #7  
Old March 20th, 2010, 05:51 PM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

Im going to start real reviews... i've seen like so many flavour reviews and most of the time all they ever talk about is "clouds" oh wow "clouds"... _

If people could describe the flavour a bit better then " i dont like it, it makes my head rush." and replace it with a bit more detail. I think people vocab lets them down.

I think as a community we should make a list of words that can best describe taste.

saying something tastes like coke and then it actually being like cough medicine... well i let you lot decide LOL
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  #8  
Old March 20th, 2010, 07:50 PM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenSilk View Post
And this is why: They are COMPLETELY and UTTERLY subjective.
It's a review. Everyone has a different palate and standards. You take reviews as a grain of salt and a guide. You look over the reviews and as a combined whole, you get your answer.


Quote:
I'm a strong supporter of reviews. Reviews I don't take seriously are those that say "I don't really like it because I'm not a fan of (insert flavor), and the buzz is too weak/too strong". Those personal dislikes should have no correlation with the score a product is given by a reviewer
I'm sorry, but if a flavor is something I strongly dislike, I'm going to let someone know that I didn't like it. It's not my cup of tea but others would enjoy it if they like such and such. I hate buzzing. It makes me literally ill. Therefore I tell the people and knock off a point because it made me ill. I hope people tell me if a shisha buzzes or not, so I know if I should buy it!
Quote:
The subjectivity is much deeper than that. It's really about the palate.Take Simply Apple for example; I clean my pipe and hose and bowl every time I smoke a new flavor.
For my reviews, I did the same, though I don't have a dedicated hose for each flavor.
Quote:
Our palates are so different, they pick up completely different flavor classes compared to another person. I went into Simply Apple thinking it would be very floral - not only was it not at all floral.....

And I tasted something completely different. I like the flavor, as it did have a nice strong flavor, but I for some reason could straight up taste spices (like cinnamon) in it. I hadn't smoked anything with spices (especially cinnamon) in my hookah nor my hose. I can't explain why I tasted it. My hookah was cleaned. Another thing, When it got too hot, the floral, air freshener taste came out. I had that experience w/ several of the Social Smoke flavors. They taste great until they get too much heat and it gets a funky taste until it cools down.

I am glad you like SS S.A, but to say that reviews are worthless because someone else had a difference in opinion/ or different result than you is highly illogical. Especially since you already stated that people have different palates.
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  #9  
Old March 20th, 2010, 08:14 PM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenSilk View Post
And this is why: They are COMPLETELY and UTTERLY subjective. I have noticed this most recently, and most profoundly, with the Social Smoke tobacco.

I'm a strong supporter of reviews. Reviews I don't take seriously are those that say "I don't really like it because I'm not a fan of (insert flavor), and the buzz is too weak/too strong". Those personal dislikes should have no correlation with the score a product is given by a reviewer. This aspect, though. isn't even the reason I am posting.

The subjectivity is much deeper than that. It's really about the palate. Take Simply Apple for example; I clean my pipe and hose and bowl every time I smoke a new flavor. I make sure that the only flavor I am tasting is that flavor - I also have dedicated hoses. Simply Apple has given me the greatest Red Apple experience I have ever tasted in a tobacco, and I feel that if anyone likes Apples they should smoke it ASAP. Yet it seems to get much different reviews and feedback compared to what I found. It can be floral, chemical, and weak - three factors I consider terrible in a fruit flavored tobacco. Our palates are so different, they pick up completely different flavor classes compared to another person. I went into Simply Apple thinking it would be very floral - not only was it not at all floral, it was perfectly natural, tangy, crisp and strong. All of the people smoking said the same thing, and they all want to smoke it constantly.

So these reviews I have been reading would have pushed me away from SS tobacco for the most part, but I decided not to take them seriously and have now found my favorite tobacco, by far.
I hella agree with you; and I, too, am digging the social smoke line, and if I had gone by the reviews I would have passed up on it....cheers. Reviews are often helpful, but mostly pointless, which is why I usually do not bother...
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  #10  
Old March 20th, 2010, 08:26 PM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

Yup, I just buy small packs and try. Whatever I like, I buy more of it. Reviews help in some ways. Sometimes I wonder what kinds of flavors are in a tobacco, so I watch the reviews and it can strengthen my curiosity of that flavor I want to get.
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  #11  
Old March 20th, 2010, 09:03 PM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

You can make the argument that this thread is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY subjective. Palate by definition is subjective because it is personal thus they will always differ.

I know Mark from HookahWhisperer smoked SS simply apple flavour and initially found it to have a floral taste. He reviewed it later and thought it was an excellent apple taste. Things can change from smoke to smoke and from reviewer.

Your points are valid to an extent, but to render all reviews worthless is too strong a statement not only because it is your subjective opinion but also because it is insulting to those who work hard to produce reviews. There are many variables to consider in a review from hookah setup to moassel batch. These can affect the reviewer’s opinion to that of your own. Hence take all reviews with a grain of salt. The same can be said with reviews for film, music, food and many more. As long as the reviews are unbiased, for example not influenced by a vendor or manufacturer, they have value.

Just watch the reviewers that have similar tastes that your own and make your mind up based on those.

Goodnight!
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  #12  
Old March 21st, 2010, 12:53 AM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

I agree with some of the things you are saying, Zen. I know that a lot of reviewers are doing their best to describe a flavor, but when you have products that are difficult to describe, you have to give them the gimme on that. You can try to put your finger on it, but it's not always accurate to what some people think. I do agree that people need to learn when they do reviews, a lot of people have the potential to see them and they need to try to be as objective as possible. I agree with KornKitten knocking off points for buzz, because sometimes that ruins the whole session for some. I personally try to be objective about my flavors, even if I don't like them. I'm not going to give a subpar flavor or tobacco a high review in the interests of someone liking it, but I sure as hell am not going to not give a flavor a chance simply because of my experience with other flavors of that kind or the fact that I don't like the flavor. For example, I'm not a huge fan of cola flavors. I think most of them taste like flat store brand pop. I did a review on AF Cola and actually liked it, mixer wise. I try to also keep in mind the way a tobacco could mix with another and if it's a mixer, I try to suggest some mixes. I am on the bandwagon that thinks that CaptHowdy's reviews are some of the best on the net. He makes sure he hits every aspect he can when it comes to his videos. Zen, I hope that this doesn't turn you off of watching reviews and I will honestly say that when I do a review, it is not simply to get my post count up or to gain entry to a contest. I love doing reviews because I know that someone will watch it and think "Well, that doesn't sound half bad, maybe I'll try it out".


P.S.- I, in no way, am trying to stir up trouble or start problems with ANY MEMBER.
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  #13  
Old March 21st, 2010, 11:50 AM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

Jussayin'.
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  #14  
Old March 21st, 2010, 12:01 PM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

Well could you give tips to reviewers to make them more objective?
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  #15  
Old March 21st, 2010, 05:55 PM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

Everyone has different tastes; it is what it is.
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  #16  
Old March 21st, 2010, 07:27 PM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

i like particular smells!
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  #17  
Old March 21st, 2010, 11:51 PM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chewymatingcall View Post
Well could you give tips to reviewers to make them more objective?
Get multiple opinions.
Clean the fuck out of your rig, hose, bowl before you smoke.
Don't use warm water.
Just because it's free doesn't mean it's good.
I don't care how much you like the flavor, I just want to know how close the flavor is to the real thing.
Don't review Blue Mist anymore
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  #18  
Old March 22nd, 2010, 12:25 AM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

Thanks for the input, by multiple opinions do you mean trying it multiple times, for an individual reviewer, they only have one opinion, it is the responsibility of the watcher to get multiple opinions, especially if the item is new, or whatever.
I clean my rig out the vast majority of the time, there was only once where I didn't clean it out and a separate time where I cut to a ghosted hose (for a tighter draw) but I let the viewer know
Warm water is preference, but I normally use cool to cold water.
Because it is free doesn't mean it is good but price is a factor, I expect more from SB and say so, and try to consider that it is more expensive, while trying to remain unbiased.
DM is NOT easy to identify how close it is to the real thing, it is more complex. Many flavors aren't an individual ingredient so there is nothing to compare it to.
I was thinking about doing Blue Mist myself, I'm not a huge fan but I have it so I may review it. Why is it so bad to review blue mist?
What does everyone else think, I want to make my reviews better
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  #19  
Old March 22nd, 2010, 12:30 AM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenSilk View Post
Get multiple opinions.
Clean the fuck out of your rig, hose, bowl before you smoke.
Don't use warm water.
Just because it's free doesn't mean it's good.
I don't care how much you like the flavor, I just want to know how close the flavor is to the real thing.
Don't review Blue Mist anymore
Amen Bruddah! QFTMFT! My rule of thumb, well actually rule of wrist, is that if a lot of people like it then it's probably an ok flavor.
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  #20  
Old March 22nd, 2010, 12:37 AM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

All reviews are going to be subjective to the reviewer, no matter what guidelines you create, and no matter the product being reviewed.

In the cigar world (which I am most accustomed to), customers always ask me, "whats the best cigar?" The answer is which ever one you like the most. Different cigars use different wrappers, binders, and fillers, which affect the taste, and every customer's taste is different. Just because a Davidoff is 29.99 doesn't mean that its the best cigar in the humidor. So by giving the customer a description from my experiences with the cigar, they can judge what they may get out of the cigar depending on how refined their pallet is. But I always remind them that, its what I got out of it, and their experience may differ, along with weither or not I enjoyed it.

Some good rules I think to follow (might have been said up above):


1. Make sure you clean your hookah before you do your review including the bowl. I mean, CLEAN!!! Spotless, no odors, tastes, etc. Clean your hoses if you can, anything that can cause a different flavor.

2. Smoke it a few times before you give your review. With cigars I usually smoke it at least 2 or 3 times before I make my decision as your taste changes with what you eat, drink, smoke, what kind of mood your in, etc.

3. Think before you post. What did it smell like fresh in the tin/bag/jar? What did you like about it? What didn't you like about it? What other flavors can you pull out of it besides the flavor on the label (The tobacco itself gives off a flavor as well)?

4. Give an honest review. Just because someone gave you some tobacco, doesn't mean that its automatically good. I have smoked Cigars that reps have given me to smoke during their deal night at our shop, and have of course taken it graciously and thanked them for the free smoke (as anyone Should!) but if I didn't like it, I didn't hide it. I wasn't an asshole about it, but I would put the cigar in the ashtray and stop smoking it, like I got busy or something. I know you can't do this when reviewing Shisha on a video, but you get the point.
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  #21  
Old March 22nd, 2010, 10:06 AM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazz View Post
All reviews are going to be subjective to the reviewer, no matter what guidelines you create, and no matter the product being reviewed.

In the cigar world (which I am most accustomed to), customers always ask me, "whats the best cigar?" The answer is which ever one you like the most. Different cigars use different wrappers, binders, and fillers, which affect the taste, and every customer's taste is different. Just because a Davidoff is 29.99 doesn't mean that its the best cigar in the humidor. So by giving the customer a description from my experiences with the cigar, they can judge what they may get out of the cigar depending on how refined their pallet is. But I always remind them that, its what I got out of it, and their experience may differ, along with weither or not I enjoyed it.

Some good rules I think to follow (might have been said up above):


1. Make sure you clean your hookah before you do your review including the bowl. I mean, CLEAN!!! Spotless, no odors, tastes, etc. Clean your hoses if you can, anything that can cause a different flavor.

2. Smoke it a few times before you give your review. With cigars I usually smoke it at least 2 or 3 times before I make my decision as your taste changes with what you eat, drink, smoke, what kind of mood your in, etc.

3. Think before you post. What did it smell like fresh in the tin/bag/jar? What did you like about it? What didn't you like about it? What other flavors can you pull out of it besides the flavor on the label (The tobacco itself gives off a flavor as well)?

4. Give an honest review. Just because someone gave you some tobacco, doesn't mean that its automatically good. I have smoked Cigars that reps have given me to smoke during their deal night at our shop, and have of course taken it graciously and thanked them for the free smoke (as anyone Should!) but if I didn't like it, I didn't hide it. I wasn't an asshole about it, but I would put the cigar in the ashtray and stop smoking it, like I got busy or something. I know you can't do this when reviewing Shisha on a video, but you get the point.
Solid post!
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  #22  
Old March 22nd, 2010, 03:32 PM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

I read as many reviews as I can, so I can find someone with similar tastes and go from there. Its served me well so far.
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  #23  
Old March 22nd, 2010, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

while palates and discriptive words are greatly varied, most scents/tastes should remain constant, given that their source doesn't change. That is to say that if one picks up a chemical taste/smell in something then finds it again in something else they should describe it in the same way. The problem with most flavor/smell reviews is that no one bothers to adhere to a standard, or at least consistantly apply the same term to the same taste/smell, they simply apply different terms each time as they come to mind.
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  #24  
Old March 22nd, 2010, 06:09 PM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

I generally pick reviewers who have similar tastes to my own. If someone loves starbuzz and other similar syrupy crap, then their reviews are worthless to me because by and large, I don't like the same kind of stuff as them.

On the other hand, I know people like Captain Howdy, Kalutika, Dee, BigPoppa, Hajo, Huskysibe, and the Madwolf/Gothkid/Puck hookah trio of the apocalypse (Even though we disagree about Zaghloul packing) are all down with the more traditional, earthy type of stuff as I am, so I hold their reviews in much higher personal regard.

Thus being said, I still don't always agree, for example, I thought Pudina was okay, but I won't be buying it again. Still, I appreciate the positive reviews they've given. Reviews are a guideline. They serve the purpose of telling you what one person thinks of the flavor. The only reviewer you can really trust is yourself. This doesn't mean reviews are worthless, I think they can give you a good starting point for picking flavors as long as you aren't expecting them to be 100% accurate to your personal tastes (Why would you expect that anyways?)

I will say that I wish many of the video reviewers would stop wasting so much time. What it smells like in the bag is irrelevant to me (Example: the smell of Khus in the container literally almost makes me vomit, but it's one of my favorite flavors ever.) Don't try to show me what the tobacco looks like, your camera can't pick it up anyways so it all just looks like mush, and I don't give a crap anyways. I don't care to know who you bought your pipe from or why it's better than the other one or what your dog just ate. Tell me the basics of your setup, and how the flavor is. SPEAK UP! I hate video reviews where all I can hear is "hmmm mmummmbleee mummmm mmmma mmmma". Personally I think you should be able to cover all the necessesary details in five minutes or less. Most of the reviews that drag into 8-10 minute territory, I wind up shutting off.
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  #25  
Old March 22nd, 2010, 07:49 PM
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Default Re: Reviews are Almost Worthless...

reviewing things like tobacco and alcohol i think are very hard. look at cigars, not only do you have the variations of what notes people will taste (one person tastes vanilla, another says its cream, another says toffee), then of course the preference, then the variation between the tobaccos that are in each cigar. same thing probably happens in shisha. then add in the flavorings and you will get a lot of variation. heck take tangiers, i am alright with the brand as a whole but honestly if i could get the same flavoring but in a tangiers tobacco/style i would probably like it more and thus have better reviews about it

i agree a lot of reviews are lacking, and when i review i try to be descriptive and unbiased in descriptions of taste as best as i can and limit my personal feelings to the end

-matt
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